I didn't want to %!%% up Gravity's thread any further, so I made a new one. Not that it is really capable of being redeemed at this point, but...yeah.

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Q u o t e:
Don't think I'm just saying this for the benefit of those of us who aren't in gravity. Just like a company that won't hire blacks, clannishness hurts Gravity. If you won't take people on your raids who aren't in your guild, then you are closing off opportunity for not only the people you reject (who can't benefit from your skills) but for the people in your guild (who can't benefit from the skills of those barred from entering).

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You're comparing...a raiding guild to "a company that won't hire blacks". I don't understand how you could be so crazy. I mean, why don't we all just say dumb %*%% that makes absolutely no sense? I think you're just like a panda that is nearly extinct, but it won't have sex anyway. That was fun.

The reason raid guilds don't bring in people outside of their guild is because it'd be like working with nothing but temps. Who wants that, really? Imagine raiding being like PvP. You hop in the queue and randomly 24 other jackasses are in a raid with you. Have you ever tried to coordinate that? That'd be what your little "everyone raids together!" shang-ri-la %!%%ing %*%% would be like.

This game isn't hard, no. It isn't nearly as hard as UT, or BF, or CS, or any other FPS. (holy acronyms, batman!) In a perfect server we'd all raid together, yeah. It'd be awesome if I could log on and take the first 24 level 70s I saw and go kill Gruul. Sadly, I can't. %*%%, I can't even take 24 people I know and kill Gruul. Raiding isn't hard because the GAME is hard, it is hard because getting 25 people to do exactly what they're supposed to for 10 minutes is like herding cats.

So yeah, there's my rant. It doesn't make a lot of sense reading back over it, but I'm hungry and distracted. I'm gonna go eat now. Oh, Ylledor, have you read Ishmael? If not, you should.

You make a valid point. That is why, for example, many PUGs fail. People are incapable of playing properly, or they feel that since it is a PUG, they can go afk during fights, skip out when a better opportunity comes along, not really pay attention, ninja loot, etc. It is your standard accountability problem, where jerks take advantage of you, so you try to regulate your way around it.

However, the current guild situation has gone to the opposite extreme. The forums, our friends' list, and numerous other venues make it possible for us all to enjoy ourselves with other serious, competent, honest players without having to be in the same guild. Just as in other situations that try to deal with the problem of random jerks, the guild situation has resulted in guild masters and officers getting too much discretionary power over loot and "who gets to go," and in-between people who shop guilds and change every week, manipulating the system to their own advantage like day traders and their ilk.

I don't think that anyone wins out in this situation, because just as in life, there will always be new and better loot (leaving you outdated if you don't hurry to get it), new dungeons, and new drama. Not even the best guild-masters or guild-skippers can be comfortable in their situations, if their only goal is to maximize their personal take and influence, because they know full well that another wolf can lurk around the next corner. If anyone who's currently in a great situation now thinks they are avoiding the problem, they must be forgetting those friends of theirs who left, or the old guild name--or whatever situation you want to imagine--and what happened that brought all the changes on. Yeah, you can forget about the drama, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen, and history will repeat itself as soon as you forget it, to flog the dead charger.

If you think you are a guild-master or guild-officer who does not exemplify those categories, I challenge you this: would you bring a competent player, who followed directions and had decent equipment, to your raid...if that player did not also click "Accept" on the text box when you invited them to your guild?

If not, why? Remember: the question said, a competent, trustworthy player.

If you think that's impossible, why do you think such people can't exist without clicking "Accept" to join your guild?

I am suggesting an approach somewhere in between the opposite extremes of anarchy and tyranny. You (Sammuel) are arguing against my approach by using the straw man of anarchy, but instead of doing that, you might instead help me suggest a better approach.

Remember: just because blizzard provided the guild tools that they did (in a way that encourages the same kind of violent tribalism the whole game's story and equipment-centered outlook are built around) we are not forever bound from attempting to organize in any other way.

Well, Yll.. you actually have some interesting points. Just curious.. have you had a bad experiece with loot in a raiding guild before? Now, I think what <Sempiternia> (sp) is doing is a good thing, but that guild is going to eventually hit a wall. There's a couple reasons to have an actual guild when you start getting into high end progression raiding...

1) Lock-out timers. You only have one week to accomplish your goal in most cases. While you're learning a new raid instance, imagine the difficulty in beating the lock out timer, if any progression you made on a particular boss one day is erased by having to retrain 10 or so people the next day on what you've already learned.

2) Loot: loot is nothing but a progression tool, and in most cases, loot from the beginning of a particular raid instance is necessary to beat the boss at the end of the same raid instance. If the loot is not staying in your particular raid group.. to be used by someone who is there for every raid/attempt, you're slowing your guild's progression down.

3) Experience. If I were to come tank one of your guild's run, I would be much less effective then a tank who has raided with you guys for months, and had a better understanding of how your guild raids. Right now, everyone in <Gravity> knows the rate in which I build threat, what situations I will use certain trinkets in, etc... little things that often mean the difference between a wipe or a successful kill. Once an instance is on farm status, and the guild is capable of beating the event with 20 or so people, then it's feasible to take 5 or so non-guildies along **provided that are competent, and able to follow instructions**.

Leadership of the guild is also a huge thing... and you're right. If a guild leader is using the guild as his own personal plaything to get himself and his friends gear, then that's a big problem. I myself stay somewhat detached from every single member of my guild, to ensure that all members are treated equally, both in regards to loot, and raid time. It's not the optimal way for me to enjoy myself, but it prevents favoritism.

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Q u o t e:
If you think you are a guild-master or guild-officer who does not exemplify those categories, I challenge you this: would you bring a competent player, who followed directions and had decent equipment, to your raid...if that player did not also click "Accept" on the text box when you invited them to your guild?

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Yes. We did it in Gruul's Lair a few weeks ago.

As for the rest, I mostly agree with you, honestly. The problem is that you are making me look bad with your lack of swearing and cool symbols like !$#@$%. I think you're failing to realize the fundamental difference in a guild like Gravity and what you're proposing. Gravity (among other guilds << >>) is trying to be "cutting edge" or ahead of the curve, so to say. To do this you need dedication to your guild-mates and to the game. That's right, dedication to the game. It sounds *%#*ing stupid, but it is true.

Your concept here is fine; a little idealistic, but fine. Many guilds do exactly what you're saying. That's right. Right now, on this server, there are groups running MC, Kara, ZG, etc, with whoever wants to go. They've been doing it for a long time on other servers (and even for a while on this one, pre-TBC). They aren't cutting edge, they aren't ahead of the curve, and they are enjoying the game in their own way. That's awesome.

Gravity, among other guilds, enjoys the game in a different way. They pay 15 dollars to do it just like everyone else. Why must you fight that system?

As for your earlier comments (pardon me if I'm remembering incorrectly, I have a bad memory) about what makes someone good or whatever. Think of it this way. A "professional" at any activity spends most of his time doing that activity, right? You don't become great at something by doing it a couple of hours a few days a week. You become great at something by tirelessly working at it, over and over. That's why someone with 100 days /played is typically better than someone with 30 days /played. Now, not to say that everyone doesn't have that potential or whatever.

The other deciding factor in this is...raiding is a lot of work. You don't just RP in Stormwind for 20 hours a week and then spend the other 20 raiding. I've spent countless hours farming materials for flasks, enchants, elixirs, pots, gear, etc, etc. Hours that, looking back, I could've spent playing Battlefield 2142.

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Q u o t e:
If you think you are a guild-master or guild-officer who does not exemplify those categories, I challenge you this: would you bring a competent player, who followed directions and had decent equipment, to your raid...if that player did not also click "Accept" on the text box when you invited them to your guild?

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Just to reiterate Sammuel, there are already guilds who do that. In fact, in the land of WoW, there are all sorts of guilds who do all sorts of things for the needs of all sorts of people.

The fact that you've having a go at Gravity for doing things their way seems to suggest that you would actually LOVE to be running with Gravity (and only Gravity, perhaps? If not, for the love of God, why are you arguing this against them?)... but you're just not willing to put in the time and effort or commitment (for many, the first test always being whether you will actually join a guild in the first place) that that particular guild expects of its members.

... which seems a little unfair, don't you think?

Sheesh, I can't even reply before again saying, in bold this time, that this is not an anti-Gravity thread, and the other one wasn't an anti-Gravity thread, and just because, as this conversation has evolved, it now includes me and two people from other guilds talking about raiding strategy, it does not mean we are opposed to one another.

Of course, maybe it should. This IS WoW after all, the king of militaristic games to end all others, where players play both the Horde and Appliance, err, Alliance, and both factions are working toward the same goal, yet still consider it appropriate to murder one another's members in order to enhance their own personal...

Ok, let's leave it at that, but my point was, beyond mentioning my minor problem with Earthkin's recruitment propaganda (and I'm taking Jonnz' word that it was just a white lie), to see if there is a better way to handle playing so that more people can have fun in this game.

Jonnz, if 24 people can learn how you build aggro, why can't 48? Sammuel, if you can farm mats, why can't someone else?

Stupid rhetorical questions that I'm sure I know your answers to, but being willing to answer obvious questions that no one else has is a good way to move forward. I might be in a position to help people do Onyxia and Molten Core right now, but I'm guessing that until the next expansion, I won't get the same opportunity with Gruul's Lair, Serpentshine, etc.

(Btw, an aside--does anyone else think it's funny that the spell-checker Blizzard provides in this forum identifies terms like "Onyxia" and "Gruul" and even "orc" as misspells?)

Back on topic, I know there are jerks, ninjas and incompetents out there, but I like to try to err on the side of being more open and more helpful. It hurts when you take one pick-up out of nineteen guild members, and that person wipes the raid three times through sheer incompetence, then blows their role on the boss fight, but then wins the roll against three of your guildies for an item they all need.

Those situations happen. However, I suggest that it is better to endure them when they come than to close off the opportunity, because that opportunity will let you discover new players you didn't know existed before. The mistake of closing off is sort of like deciding never to try a relationship again because you got burned once. The iron curtain of guild membership, if you prefer.

Give more people a chance. They won't be as good as the ones you're accustomed to, but you'll pick a lot of gems out of them. It might slow you down a bit, but more people will be there at the end to celebrate with. Even if we don't get as many items in the game, it makes us better human beings.

God knows this isn't the appropriate argument to make in America right now. By the same token, this entire game seems designed against my ideas, and maybe I'm crazy to think they'll apply here. You guys both have very good points: the lunacy of one-week raid timers and locking characters to a certain instance are both designed to enforce the type of clannish guild structure Blizzard wants to see. It is similar to the way Blizzard used to put out too few mining nodes in high-level zones so that you couldn't enjoy being a blacksmith, instead you had to spend 12 hours a day checking respawn points and racing other players, not to mention the farmers who would stealth up and mine while you fought the mob off, if you wanted to be able to make any of the cool recipes.

Or, need I mention, the absolute travesty of the old PVP honor system. That has been improved now, and they cut raiding down to 25 man instead of 40 man, but jeez...same philosophy still, just a smaller scale. I still remember the guy who told me he played 18 hrs a day--every day--for 3 weeks straight in his final push to Grand Marshal. For a staff that is now outdated to greens in Outland. Jesus, a video game shouldn't entice people to do that. A video game shouldn't make people inadequate who don't do that.

Put two mice in a cage and toss in inadequate food, and yup, they'll have to fight. They'll feel frantic, and on edge, and they'll rush like hell to get what they need. Spin the treadmill, and they'll always be afraid of falling behind. Same thing today with salaries and job security and health insurance. WoW is great training for kids planning to hit the corporate world.

I'll come back tomorrow with some ideas for improvement, I got too bogged down in ranting today to get to that part. Oh, and when I come back, I'll be sure to bring my moose helmet to shield me from the posts that will scream at me that I am using inappropriate analogies, making improper political references, and am just being "mean" to raiders in general (in more vulgar terms and less complete English than that, I'll wager). (I am not expecting that from you two, just wondering if the peanut gallery will be motivated to do so)

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Q u o t e:


(Btw, an aside--does anyone else think it's funny that the spell-checker Blizzard provides in this forum identifies terms like "Onyxia" and "Gruul" and even "orc" as misspells?)

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Thats not a blizz spell checker. That would be FireFox.

Interesting read though.

Damn you, Firefox, where do you come up with all these features?

At least it accepts its own name as properly-spelled, provided you capitalize it.

Actually, level 11 alt, "the collective of the TB forum-hood..." is total crap since I disagree and laugh at everything you type on this forum.

1) You're too much of a @!%!* to post on your main.

2) You ignore his points and instead take the time to re-post a mocking version of it just to be clever.

3) You don't, can't, and never will represent TB's community as a whole.

Nice try at being funny.

I rofled when i got to the part where he compared racism to people not inviting non-guildmates on raids.

The level 11 alt is right. Leave him alone because his post was less eyeroll inducing than whatshisfaces who compared two completely different things in a completely kneejerk emotional response that he used in an attempt to garner some sort of sympathy but only ousted him as a complete moron.

What I'm seeing is "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH WHY DIDN'T YOU INVITE ME ON A RAID."

It's not your business how a guild is run, they can run it if they like. Guilds are tightknit communities of people who know each other outside of things like friendslists and passing conversations/whispers. They literally spend all their in game time listening to or talking to each other. That makes them far more capable of acting as a well formed unit. Throwing in some random yahoo who seemed nice on the street is just asking for a "Oops I didn't know I wasn't supposed to loot broodlord's head!". Those 25+ 40+ people worked hard to get into the guild that they're in, via applications, mat farming, etc. Because they expended the extra time to GET in, that entitles them to go on runs where outsiders can't.

Alliance raids and even PuG raids can be successful, but the fact of the matter is that guilds like Nihilum, Curse, and Death and Taxes got to their level of success because they DIDN'T include randomstreetguyA. They have a schedule, they have their teams, they have strategies that they discuss on ventrilo/teamspeak, and they know who their leaders are. It's all very cut and dry, and they work like a well oiled machine. The members who go for the test and learning runs, the class leads who organize people's talent trees, and the people who sacrifice their time for the guild are the ones who deserve to go on the raids.

You can do that without the guild tag over your head, but you still didn't spend the time applying and building a network amongst their guildmates like they did, therefore you do not deserve to go.

Even being friends with a lot of the people in Gravity, I wouldn't expect me to go up to them with a level 70 char off the street and say, "Hey Tifana, we're buds right, let me run.". No way. I'd need to prove in some way (via applications and test runs) that I deserved a spot.

In conclusion:

STFU when you don't know what you're talking about.

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Q u o t e:
Sammuel, if you can farm mats, why can't someone else?

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If they are willing to take the time to do something so insane (yes, I admit it is insane) then they are willing to join a guild to do it with them. There's NO WAY I could possibly do everything I need to do for a raid alone. I have a guid supporting me. That's the biggest reason guilds are needed to raid successfully. It provides organization.

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Q u o t e:
Back on topic, I know there are jerks, ninjas and incompetents out there, but I like to try to err on the side of being more open and more helpful. It hurts when you take one pick-up out of nineteen guild members, and that person wipes the raid three times through sheer incompetence, then blows their role on the boss fight, but then wins the roll against three of your guildies for an item they all need.

Those situations happen. However, I suggest that it is better to endure them when they come than to close off the opportunity, because that opportunity will let you discover new players you didn't know existed before. The mistake of closing off is sort of like deciding never to try a relationship again because you got burned once. The iron curtain of guild membership, if you prefer.

Give more people a chance. They won't be as good as the ones you're accustomed to, but you'll pick a lot of gems out of them. It might slow you down a bit, but more people will be there at the end to celebrate with. Even if we don't get as many items in the game, it makes us better human beings.

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Like I said earlier, we've taken people to raids that weren't in the guild before. We did it in Gruul's Lair on our first attempt there and actually ended up recruiting a couple of them. That's how recruiting is done, though. You have to give people a chance before you know what they're capable of. Our (and most raiding guilds) entire recruitment process is based around that "chance".

You really hit the nail on the head with, "It might slow you down a bit". That's the basis of the entire thing, honestly. Raiding guilds don't want to be slow, they want to be first. If everyone thought like this there'd be no such thing as competition in the world and things would suck. Sure, we'd all be happy, but I doubt you'd have a PC (or even a Mac!) right now. It was born out of competition, after all.

The point is, you're applying a philosophy to this game that is vastly different from modern culture. Your ideas are utopian and idealistic. There's nothing wrong with that, but let's be serious for a moment. In a game where the majority of players are most likely (a total guess here) between the ages of 13-25. So you have a bunch of kids (I'm one of them!) who've created this completely anonymous world in which they can act however they want without consequence. Do you honestly think things will ever be like you want? This thread is an example of just how incapable people are of what you want.

Sammuel, I don't think that the small number of people who've shown up to say "nyah nyah nyah" at me prove that there is no hope for humanity to behave cooperatively on a large scale, instead of confining cooperation to self-serving clan structures. There are, and have been, very successful societies in this world where giving and assisting are the dominant values, and putting those aside, there are at least a great number more where the idea of helping the less fortunate manages to find credence as the baseline of what is decent and acceptable.

People can change, and grow, and become better, and if the individuals that they look up to begin to change, they will follow the example. Look at all the people who pipe up in these kinds of situations to say, basically, "I support <dominant faction> because they are cool!" Those type of non-sequiturs are motivated by lack of confidence, and lead to alpha-male syndrome. I.e., if you feel nervous about yourself, you reassure yourself about your situation by firmly supporting the accepted authoritarian figure--in this case, Jonnz--which gives the nervous person a comfortable place somewhere in the middle of the pack. However, if more of these daddy figures were to help set a different kind of example, it would give those types of nervous people a different kind of model to follow.

Seriously, think about the way you do it in a guild. You start out as a good guild master by helping your guildies on runs, and fostering a spirit of in-guild cooperation, exchanging crafting mats, working to get someone a drop, etc. As that grows through your officers and down, it becomes the guild standard, such that you will see newly-joined members offering items up in guildchat. This kind of behavior does not need to be confined to exclusive clubs. At least, that's what I hope, because very few people can afford country-club membership.

If you refuse to believe that we can play any game but king of the hill, your reward for being right will be a lifetime of pushing and shoving.

Yll, I've read and re-read your recent posts over and over... and while you do have some interesting (albeit ideallistic) ideas, I still don't understand the point you're trying to make.

Does it offend you that people choose to join traditional raiding guilds based on models proven to be successful in regards to raiding progression? Does it bother you that your perception of raiding guilds is that they are clannish or self serving? Well, when you think about, everyone who plays WoW pays approx. $15 per month to play the game for their own enjoyment. The very nature of the game promotes being self serving. You don't log on 5 days a week for the benefit of someone else.. you log on for your own enjoyment.

Now, a big flaw in your arguments is that traditional raiding guild stucture promotes exclusivity. Every single person on any given server has the same opportunity to join the raiding guild, provided that they complete the necessary requirements to join said guild. Many people with no raiding experience whatsoever have earned spots in <Gravity> and have proven themselves to be excellent raiders and valued members.

Another flaw in your arguement is that PuG style raiding could be almost as effective as traditional guild raiding. We choose to raid for progressions sake. We choose to attempt to go as far as possible in content. It takes alot of work, and alot of discipline.... and we pay $15 a month to play with like minded individuals. No multi-guild alliance, or PuG raid has ever been at the forefront of progression, simply because of the problems that come into play with organization. To be very blunt with you, in order for us to progress at the pace we wish too, we don't have time to discuss every single decision that needs to be made. We don't have time to debate strategies. Raids need to occur in a militaristic fashion, in which everyone knows the job they need to perform. One person who has proven themselves knowledgable and competent has to make the decisions on a raid, and everyone needs to have confidence enough in that raid leader to follow without question. That may not apply to MC and BWL, but it's a must for AQ40 and above. Again, it's how we choose to play, and it's obvious that that method is somewhat successful.

If you honestly believe that an open PuG method of raiding can be effective, then you should prove it through actions.. not just bash the proven organizational systems. Kill Nightbane or Gruul with an open raid system within five weeks from now, and I'll concede that your arguements are justified. Until then, I will continue to believe that a strictly disciplined guild based on models such as Death n Taxes, Afterlife, and Nihilum are the way to go for progression. Yes, you may have had some success with Molten Core, but advanced raiding begins with AQ40. Hell, I'd have a hard time believing that you could even down a Naxx boss or two with your suggested method of raiding. There's too little accountability on a personal level.

Also, I wanted to point out that the majority of the flak you're getting is not necessarily because of the idea's you're attempting to introduce, but the manner you're trying to introduce them with. Raiding guilds are **not** anymore self serving then any other type of group or player. Folks who choose to go to traditional raiding guilds are **not** nervous people which need to follow an authoritive figure... They are people who enjoy raiding in a disciplined environment/people who wish to be at the forefront of progression on the server. Your initial post in our recruitment post was a jab, not a lead in to a potential discussion about the possibilities of non guild raiding. You're coming across much too antagonistic, and you've failed to make the point you're trying to get across clear. Are you just complaining about traditional raiding guilds, or is there an actual point?

You asked if 24 people could become used to how I tank, why not 48? Why in the world would i want 48 people available to raid, when I could only take 25. Why would I want anyone who hasn't been learning fights with us since day one of attempting that particular fight to sit on standby, while I retrain someone from another guild who may not ever decide to raid with us again? It flies in the face of common sense when focusing on progression.

Jonnz
Guild Leader of <Gravity>

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Q u o t e:
There are, and have been, very successful societies in this world where giving and assisting are the dominant values, and putting those aside, there are at least a great number more where the idea of helping the less fortunate manages to find credence as the baseline of what is decent and acceptable.

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I'll need evidence of that. Unless of course you're referencing ancient societies of early man, before the invention of currency.

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Q u o t e:
However, if more of these daddy figures were to help set a different kind of example, it would give those types of nervous people a different kind of model to follow.

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People follow others because they choose to. They make that decision based on the actions of their leader...most of the time.

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Q u o t e:
Seriously, think about the way you do it in a guild. You start out as a good guild master by helping your guildies on runs, and fostering a spirit of in-guild cooperation, exchanging crafting mats, working to get someone a drop, etc. As that grows through your officers and down, it becomes the guild standard, such that you will see newly-joined members offering items up in guildchat. This kind of behavior does not need to be confined to exclusive clubs. At least, that's what I hope, because very few people can afford country-club membership.

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You're right, but assuming it can work on mass-scales is pretty out there. It would take centuries to retrain society to act differently.

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Q u o t e:
If you refuse to believe that we can play any game but king of the hill, your reward for being right will be a lifetime of pushing and shoving.

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Oh, believe me, I don't believe we're forced to play king of the hill. In fact, I completely hate it. You can do it or you can not do it, but to "get ahead" in anything you play the game. I'm fine with not playing it, though. Ask anyone that knows me and they'll tell you I'm a lazy, unemployed guy that lives off of savings from some earlier investments/work that I really wish I had no part in.

I think the difference between us is that you see this vision and think it is possible for everyone. I see this vision and think very few are capable, but I'm okay with that. I'm happy letting everyone do whatever they want because it doesn't really bother me.

Jonnz, you said, “I still don't understand the point you're trying to make.”

That’s because I haven’t made it, or them, yet. Read back--I said I would come up with some ideas about how things could be done differently. I haven’t yet, so in the absence of that, you seem to be doing two things: 1) Assuming that I am advocating an anarchic raiding model, then employing it as a straw man and arguing with that model, and 2) Taking my current PUG MC-raids as my ideal model, and arguing with that model.

I am not advocating utter anarchy, nor am I holding up the PUG raids I’ve done as shining examples of perfection. I am aware of the problems with both of those models, and explaining to me why they would not work does not teach me anything.

Some ideas of possible models:

The ebay model: player feedback could be used to let other players know if someone is competent, trustworthy, likely to go afk all the time during runs, etc. A player history could let you know what encounters someone has participated in, and whether they have been successful or not. This model would not be successful without a mod (and you would expect people to have it to play, so that you could review their feedback and history), or blizzard changing things in a patch. It would have an added benefit of encouraging people to be aware that if they screw over a dungeon group by stealing an item or hearthing out for no good reason, it will attach to their reputation.

The forum model: using the internet, be it a blizzard forum, offsite, or even a listserv could help coordinate interested raiders, and set up a community loot system and leadership structure for each raid. This model could be easily successful without any patches or modification.

The benefit of these kinds of systems is that it allows for greater coordination of larger numbers of people, and becomes more inclusive than exclusive. The problem with guild organization is that it becomes difficult to coordinate more than one large raiding group. This is why so many guilds broke apart, even on this RP server, over Karazhan, and over the shrinking of the traditional raid size from 40 to 25. Out of the larger group, though, multiple 25-man raids could be coordinated. The diversity of the larger body would allow classes to be switched around as required.

The guild standard is also highly inflexible. By concentrating management authority in a single individual, it may make it easy to have a leader around for raids, but in the event of a disagreement or drama, peoples’ unwillingness to change fractures the guild, because not everyone is ready or able to leave when some of the officers do. There mere hesitation associated with the act of leaving causes the group itself to shatter, and shed members to other guilds as some of the officers and their followers escape, and other people stay with the original leader, and other people join their friend’s cousin’s guild, etc.

A more egalitarian model based around forum or listserv organization does not suffer from this, because everyone is a member of a larger body, and there is no “moving” that needs to happen when drama exists, because your membership in this or that guild does not determine your access to a bank, your access to a raid, or your being denied access to another raid.

Note that I said management authority above. To counter the argument that you need a “military” command structure to raid, I would say that you would still employ said structure during the raid, but that giving someone that tactical authority does not also have to require giving that person all management and coordination authority of all the out-of-dungeon stuff.

Ok Yll...

What you are saying is that there may be a benefit to using a forum list or listserv to set up a community pool of raiding that shares a common raid leadership and loot policy.

A raiding guild is a pool of people that shares common raid leadership and a common loot policy.

Any differences that would force a splintering of the guild would also force a splintering of any forum list group or listserv group of people raiding together... ie, If a disagreement occured that was powerful enough to not make me want to guild with you, I doubt that I'd want to continue raiding with you.

A competent raiding guild leader does not have control over what it's members does during off raid times. Off raid times is generally to be used for whatever the member chooses... typically grouping with friends, farming, etc... While I have no doubt some inexperienced guild leaders may try to dictate what it's members can and cannot do during non-raid times, those guilds will ultimately fail quickly. A guild leader's job in a pve progression guild is to direct pve progression during non raid times.

It still **seems** like you have some issues with some preconceived notions of what really goes on in a raiding guild without actually having experienced it, or you have been in a guild with a very incompetent guild leader before.

Jonnz
Guild Leader of <Gravity>