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Zarhym
Blizzard Poster
  • 0. Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking   08/28/2008 06:12:09 PM PDT
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With the release of upcoming content patch players will see a change in the way we allow buffs and debuffs to stack exclusively in a raid. For the most part, what this change means is that many buffs and debuffs that were previously allowed to stack together no longer can, and that many buffs and debuffs that only a single talent specialization could bring can now be brought by multiple different specializations. The philosophy behind this change shows up in many of the changes we have made in Wrath of The Lich King, such as when we made almost all buffs raid-wide. We want players to be able to form raids and parties based on who they want to play with, rather than who has the correct talents and abilities to min-max their raid performance.

Raid composition will still matter to some extent, but without this change, it would have overwhelmed every other aspect of raid planning (as we added new capabilities to each of 30 different talent trees). You no longer need to rigidly control the melee/spellcaster balance of your raid, or make sure every group has all the critical buffing classes, etc. This change has many class balance implications.

IMPORTANT! Before we are done, we will thoroughly test the performance of every class. It should not be assumed that one class' current performance relative to others in beta is final. Some classes (and specializations) will need to be reduced in power and some increased. Many may feel the change has more impact on class X than class Y. We will address all of those concerns via our internal testing and community feedback.

There are thirty or so different categories into which buffs and debuffs fit. Here you will find a comprehensive list of the changes made broken down by category and which spells/talents are in that category.

    Armor Debuff (Major): Acid Spit (exotic Hunter pet), Expose Armor, Sunder Armor
    Armor Debuff (Minor): Faerie Fire, Sting (Hunter pet), Curse of Recklessness
    Physical Vulnerability Debuff: Blood Frenzy, (2nd Talent Spec TBA)
    Melee Haste Buff: Improved Icy Talons, Windfury Totem
    Melee Critical Strike Chance Buff: Leader of the Pack, Rampage
    Attack Power Buff (Flat Add): Battle Shout, Blessing of Might
    Attack Power Buff (Multiplier): Abomination's Might, Trueshot Aura, Unleashed Rage
    Ranged Attack Power Buff: Hunter's Mark (only Hunters benefit, so no need to exclude against other class abilities)
    Bleed Damage Increase Debuff: Mangle, Trauma
    Spell Haste Buff: Wrath of Air Totem
    Spell Critical Strike Chance Buff: Moonkin Aura, Elemental Oath
    Spell Critical Strike Chance Debuff: Improved Scorch, Winter's Chill
    Increased Spell Damage Taken Debuff: Ebon Plaguebringer, Earth and Moon, Curse of the Elements
    Increased Spell Power Buff: Focus Magic, Improved Divine Spirit, Flametongue Totem, Totem of Wrath, Demonic Pact
    Increased Spell Hit Chance Taken Debuff: Improved Faerie Fire, Misery
    Percentage Haste Increase (All Types): Improved Moonkin Aura, Swift Retribution
    Percentage Damage Increase: Ferocious Inspiration, Sanctified Retribution
    Critical Strike Chance Taken Debuff (All types): Heart of the Crusader, Totem of Wrath
    Melee Attack Speed Slow Debuff: Icy Touch, Infected Wounds, Judgements of the Just, Thunderclap
    Melee Hit Chance Reduction Debuff: Insect Swarm, Scorpid Sting
    Healing Debuff: Wound Poison, Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Furious Attacks
    Attack Power Debuff: Demoralizing Roar, Curse of Weakness, Demoralizing Shout
    Stat Multiplier Buff: Blessing of Kings
    Stat Add Buff: Mark of the Wild
    Agility and Strength Buff: Strength of Earth Totem, Horn of Winter
    Stamina Buff: Power Word: Fortitude
    Health Buff: Commanding Shout, Blood Pact
    Intellect Buff: Arcane Intellect, Fel Intelligence
    Spirit Buff: Divine Spirit, Fel Intelligence
    Damage Reduction Percentage Buff: Grace, Blessing of Sanctuary
    Percentage Increase Healing Received Buff: Tree of Life, Improved Devotion Aura
    Armor Increase Percentage Buff: Inspiration, Ancestral Healing
    Cast Speed Slow: Curse of Tongues, Slow, Mind-numbing Poison.

In each category, you can only benefit from the most powerful spell granting that effect. For example, Fel Intelligence grants spirit and intellect, both weaker than Arcane Intellect and Divine Spirit. If a player has Fel Intelligence and receives a stronger Arcane Intellect buff, he will gain the intellect value from Arcane Intellect and the spirit value from Fel Intelligence.

In most cases, fully-talented players will have exactly equal power on the strength of these buffs and debuffs. Fel Intelligence is an example of where one ability is weaker than others. The buffs in the "Increased Spell Power Buff" category are also not all the same potency, as they scale and grow in radically different ways. In virtually every other case, however, the buffs are equal. This means, for example, that fully-talented Battle Shout and Blessing of Might now grant the exact same amount of attack power.

In addition to this change, we also needed to address the "mana battery" roles in a raid. The mana regeneration effect they grant is no longer limited to their own party, and it no longer depends on the amount of damage they deal. Each time they trigger the mana regeneration effect, 10 people in their raid group will receive a buff which causes them to regenerate 0.5% of their maximum mana each second. This buff, Replenishment, will be given preferentially to raid members with the lowest mana, but will re-evaluate which raid members receive it each time it is fired. Replenishment is provided by Shadow Priests, Survival Hunters, and Retribution Paladins.

Finally, we have modified Heroism and Bloodlust to affect the entire raid. However, all affected raid members will be unable to cast or benefit from Bloodlust/Heroism for 5 minutes.

Below you will find a list of the changes to abilities which exhibit new behavior regardless of the exclusive categories. The changes usually mean the old behavior was removed and replaced by the new behavior. Numbers listed are for maximally-talented versions. Here is that list of changes:

    Improved Scorch: Increases spell critical strike chance against the target.
    Winter's Chill: Also increases spell critical strike chance against the target.
    Elemental Oath: Grants 5% spell crital strike to raid members.
    Improved Moonkin Aura: Grants 3% haste of all types.
    Earth and Moon: Increases spell damage taken from all schools by 13% on the target.
    Misery: Causes spells cast at the target to have +3% spell hit.
    Shadow Weaving: Buffs only self.
    Improved Shadow Bolt: Buffs only self.
    Expose Weakness: Buffs only self.
    Shadow Embrace: Buffs only self.
    Blood Pact: Grants health instead of Stamina.
    Fel Intelligence: Has replacement ranks that grant flat values of Intellect and Spirit.
    Frost Aura: Excludes properly against all other resistance buffs.
    Grace: Reduces damage taken by target by 3%.
    Rampage: Increases melee and ranged critical strike chance by 5% for the raid.
    Improved Faerie Fire: No longer benefits melee and ranged hit chance, only spell hit.
    Hunter's Mark: No longer increases attack power bonus from attacks against the target.
    Improved Hunter's Mark: No longer grants melee attack power.
    Sting (Hunter pet): Now acts as a minor armor debuff.
    Waylay: Attack speed reduction changed to 20%.
    Icy Touch: Only slows melee attack speed (not ranged or spell).
    Tree of Life: No longer grants healing based on spirit, grants 3% increased healing received to raid.
    Demonic Pact: Now buffs raid instead of debuffing monsters.
    Focus Magic: Now buffs raid instead of debuffing monsters.
    Totem of Wrath: Now grants a flat amount of spell damage, and all enemies in its radius have an increased chance of being struck by criticals.
    Heroism: Cannot be recast while caster has Exhausted debuff, and those with Exhausted debuff cannot be affected by it.
    Bloodlust: Cannot be recast while caster has Sated debuff, and those with Sated debuff cannot be affected by it.
    Vampiric Touch: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on dealing damage.
    Hunting Party: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on specified shots.
    Judgements of the Wise: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on Judging.

[ Post edited by Zarhym ]


The status is not quo...
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  • Deathwing
  • 1. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:17:23 PM PDT
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I see.
Edit: Holy crap my first first. Not as exciting as I thought it would be.
I like the changes though.

Edit: Title

[ Post edited by Zarhym ]


Hello. My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father prepare to die.
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  • 2. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:17:45 PM PDT
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Do scrolls stack with similar effects under this system?

Edit: Title

[ Post edited by Zarhym ]


Outliers are irrelevant when analyzing trends.

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'.
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  • Proudmoore
  • 3. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:20:16 PM PDT
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Really looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

Edit: Title

[ Post edited by Zarhym ]

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  • Dark Iron
  • 4. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:20:46 PM PDT
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Quite an admirable, but lofty goal.

In before "You're dumbing down the game!"

(Awww, my edit got edited my Zahrym! <3)


Edit: Title

[ Post edited by Andian ]

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  • 7. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:23:31 PM PDT
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I like the spirit of this change and will look forward to seeing it in action.

I saw no mention of prayer of healing or holy nova on the list of changed spells. Is there any thought to making these spells affect up-to 5 members of the raid instead of just party specific? Triage is essential here of course, but certainly this does not seem unprecedented.

at any rate, I really like where you are taking things, thanks for this.

Edit: Title

[ Post edited by Zarhym ]


Blue Green spinning round and round
Bang! Stop
Start again
-Benlian Mithrandir, Bard of Ages
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  • Dark Iron
  • 8. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:25:44 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:
I like the spirit of this change and will look forward to seeing it in action.

I saw no mention of prayer of healing or holy nova on the list of changed spells. Is there any thought to making these spells affect up-to 5 members of the raid instead of just party specific? Triage is essential here of course, but certainly this does not seem unprecedented.

at any rate, I really like where you are taking things, thanks for this.

Edit: Title


I believe this is just a list of buffs and debuffs. I don't see why healing spells would be on there.
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  • 9. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:25:52 PM PDT
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Interesting. Adding any new raid buffs like the warrior crit ability?

[ Post edited by Frostfire ]


"I can't count how many Razuvious and Patchwerk kills have been saved by the fact that half my keyboard is bound to Evasion. Aggro gain warning? Smash face on keyboard!"
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  • Gurubashi
  • 10. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:26:01 PM PDT
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Yay for no more shammy spam in raids!
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  • 11. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:26:18 PM PDT
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So does that mean that Devistate (i.e. Sunder application) can now be used on a target that has Improved Exposed Armor (5pt) just that the target is only affected by the larger amount? Or is this still not do-able.

Rogue abilities to watch out for:
<Not yet implemented>
<Broken>
<Not yet implemented>
<Not yet implemented>
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  • 12. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:26:23 PM PDT
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I like the change overall.

I'm curious to see what the numbers are for the new version of focus magic. Does this mean it won't have charges anymore? What will the duration and cost be?
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  • 13. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:28:12 PM PDT
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I really think many of these changes will help smaller guilds that like to play more casually actually progress and see content. my biggest problem with BC so far has been the inability to raid with the people I enjoy playing with the most. Most definately a step in the right direction.

[ Post edited by Keildia ]

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Vux
  • Dragonblight
  • 14. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:31:01 PM PDT
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I. Shadow Embrace Change:

    Shadow Embrace: Buffs only self.


HOLY CRAP!!!! What was already an almost complete waste of 5 talent points for an extremely minimal gain to the raid, now gives absolutely no benefit to anyone else in the raid. WOW.

Who in the heck is going to waste 5 talent points on this now??

And what about "Warlock Utility", when one of the cornerstones of it just vanished into thin air???



---------------

II. NON-STACKING Increased Spell Damage Taken Debuff:

    Death Knight:
    Ebon Plaguebringer:
    Your Crypt Fever morphs into Ebon Plague, which increases vulnerability to magic by 13% in addition to increasing the damage done by diseases.

    Moonkin:
    Earth and Moon:
    Increases spell damage taken from all schools by 13% on the target.

    Warlock:
    Curse of the Elements:
    Curses the target for 5 min, reducing Arcane, Fire, Frost, Nature, and Shadow resistances by 165 and increasing Arcane, Fire, Frost, Nature and Shadow damage taken by 13%.


We already knew about the Death Knight debuff, but now Druids get it too.

However, notice that ours is the ONLY one that doesn't include Holy Damage! So not only do two other classes get it, but the original class to provide this debuff is now left with an inferior version of it!

WOW!


---------------

III. Fel Intelligence

    In each category, you can only benefit from the most powerful spell granting that effect. For example, Fel Intelligence grants spirit and intellect, both weaker than Arcane Intellect and Divine Spirit. If a player has Fel Intelligence and receives a stronger Arcane Intellect buff, he will gain the intellect value from Arcane Intellect and the spirit value from Fel Intelligence.

    In most cases, fully-talented players will have exactly equal power on the strength of these buffs and debuffs. Fel Intelligence is an example of where one ability is weaker than others.


"Affliction Warlocks bring EXTRA intelligence and spirit to the raid with the Felhunter out! Awesome!!!"

Oh nevermind. It doesn't stack.



---------------

IV. Other Non-Stacking Curses:

    Armor Debuff (Minor): Faerie Fire, Sting (Hunter pet), Curse of Recklessness
    Attack Power Debuff: Demoralizing Roar, Curse of Weakness, Demoralizing Shout
    Cast Speed Slow: Curse of Tongues, Slow, Mind-numbing Poison.




--------------------------------------------------



So now that Affliction Warlocks have lost ALL of their exclusive raid utility, what POSSIBLE excuse is there for justifying extremely sub-par Affliction DPS?

Can we PLEASE have haste/crit dot scaling now?

Absolutely ridiculous.








[ Post edited by Vux ]


    I lost my job, my girlfriend cheated on me, my dog died, and now DK dots crit.

    My finger gets closer to the trigger every day.
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  • 15. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:32:04 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:

Hunter's Mark: No longer increases attack power bonus from attacks against the target.


So Hunter's Mark will just be a flat 300 RAP increase? Lame.
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  • Silvermoon
  • 16. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:34:03 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:
Misery: Causes spells cast at the target to have +3% spell hit.
Shadow Weaving: Buffs only self.
Vampiric Touch: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on dealing damage.

I'm going to try really REALLY hard to be patient here, but I just can't draw up any more optimism over my spec anymore :(
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  • Uldaman
  • 17. Re: Changes to Dumb down raiding   08/28/2008 06:34:19 PM PDT
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Interesting.
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  • Dark Iron
  • 18. Re: Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stack   08/28/2008 06:34:59 PM PDT
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Q u o t e:

I'm going to try really REALLY hard to be patient here, but I just can't draw up any more optimism over my spec anymore :(


They'll probably buff those numbers. Beta is in beta.
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