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Q u o t e:
I'm assuming, btw, that both SotF and Kings are calculated for agility...

Another thing to consider is that druids will scale better from all raid buffs.. Of course, this doesn't address scaling, at all, but just gives us a little boost.

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Hi Melian,

I of course included all applicable talents, but the evaluation doesn't include Kings currently (I wanted to keep raid buffs out of the initial calculations for simplicity).

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Q u o t e:

So I'mma try to crunch some numbers about ilvl scaling.

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With Toskk's awesome way of modeling bear survivability (breakdown stat point by stat point for its value), your extension by extrapolating to higher i-level gear is probably the best way for us to determine if the sky is indeed falling or not.

Obviously there's probably flaws in the model, but I think overall it will tell us just how poorly or well bears will scale compared to warriors.

I'm pretty excited to see how we scale with the new talents using those numbers. I'm still concerned about high iLvL tanking. If we balance in deep purples with all that extra defense, str, ap, crit, etc. I'll be pretty happy with the bear end of things.

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Q u o t e:


Hi Melian,

I of course included all applicable talents, but the evaluation doesn't include Kings currently (I wanted to keep raid buffs out of the initial calculations for simplicity).

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Ok, good to know. Kings will affect druids more than warriors, though, so lemme include that quickly.

Druid, for AP, Armor, agi, stam:
2.22 * 0.001361 + 0.528825 * 0.004976 + 0.793238 * 0.011982 = 0.015157 seconds.

Warr for armor, str, def, stam:
9.9 * 0.000326 + 0.528825 * 0.000686 + 0.48075 * 0.004984 + 0.793238 * 0.008109 = 0.012419 seconds.

Warr for armor, str, def, dodge, stam:
9.9 * 0.000326 + 0.436535 * 0.000686 + 0.39685 * 0.004984 + 0.39685 * 0.004951 + 0.654803 * 0.008109 = 0.012779 seconds.

Druid, for AP, hit/crit/haste/Pen, armor, agi, stam:
2.22 * 0.001361 + 0.436535 * 0.004976 + 0.654803 * 0.011982 = 0.013039 seconds.

So provided our other slots are itemized reasonably well, it seems that druids will scale very slightly better than warriors for this model. Some warrior pieces will likely have an additional mitigation stat, such as Block Rating or Value; however druids will benefit slightly more from gems, which may be enough to balance it out.

Overall, it seems that tanking will be fine. Now if they could fix dps... :,(


Edited for clarity.

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Say hello to the AGI:Dodge nerf? It's been nerfed for two weeks now.

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I knew about the nerf, i havent checked the dodge rating:dodge forumla yet and i was on my way to work.

To throw another wrench into the equation on this, we are sharing equipment (outside of tiered gear of course) with others. namely trinkets, rings and necklaces. None of those are going to be specifically tailored to druids meaning lost itemization points. So we actually have two scaling issues with the gear. Jewlery/trinkets not designed for us so have lost points per iLvl and the increase in stat point cost per iLvl as you stack them higher

Grain of salt here. A lot of this analysis is predicated on the CURRENT armor scaling. Toskk has found that a druid will have roughly 6k more armor than a warrior in fresh 80 gear. That is basically the saving grace at the moment, and contradictory to the blue post that implied that bears wouldn't have more armor than warriors.

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Q u o t e:
Even if another tanking class ends up having slightly more armor than a druid, the differences should be so minor that neither of you is at a significant disadvantage on a boss.

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Lets make sure that somehow that 6k difference isn't made up for by warriors somehow in a future change, because that seems to be our main 'advantage'.

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Q u o t e:


I knew about the nerf, i havent checked the dodge rating:dodge forumla yet and i was on my way to work.

To throw another wrench into the equation on this, we are sharing equipment (outside of tiered gear of course) with others. namely trinkets, rings and necklaces. None of those are going to be specifically tailored to druids meaning lost itemization points. So we actually have two scaling issues with the gear. Jewlery/trinkets not designed for us so have lost points per iLvl and the increase in stat point cost per iLvl as you stack them higher

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Armor.

Oh hey look, argument's blown.

This is true. However, given how well we scale with armor, I think the we'll scale better than other classes from these slots.

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Q u o t e:
Grain of salt here. A lot of this analysis is predicated on the CURRENT armor scaling. Toskk has found that a druid will have roughly 6k more armor than a warrior in fresh 80 gear. That is basically the saving grace at the moment, and contradictory to the blue post that implied that bears wouldn't have more armor than warriors.

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Contradictory to a non-existent implication.

It was an EXAMPLE. Stop using that quote out of context.

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Q u o t e:

Contradictory to a non-existent implication.

It was an EXAMPLE. Stop using that quote out of context.

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Hmm, well Toskk was also apparently misled by that and/or similar posts

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Higher Armor Mitigation. I was pleased to see this, and it marks a reversal from my previous assessment, as well as potentially contradicts several Blue posts.

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that was part of Tossk's initial asessment. I was pointing out that yes point for point we are close to warriors, but we don't have as many ways to get the points and stacking them higher works against us while also losing some of those points due to 5 item spots not being geared to us. If you can assigned 100 ability points to an item for instance and it went to 50 agility 50 stamina it would be roughly equivalent to a warrior item (yes i know it wouldnt be 50 of each but it's an example) however we are not going to be getting that itemization because it "is wasted itemization" to give stuff to only feral druids

Edit: i meant 100 but you get the point. oh and incoming "Hassalhoof is a doom and gloom druid! why don't you just quit" by Celik

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Q u o t e:

Contradictory to a non-existent implication.

It was an EXAMPLE. Stop using that quote out of context.

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I agree that we can often take a single word of a single Blue post and blow it out of proportion, however in light of the scaling of base armor values per item level for leather and plate (i.e. druids scale with base leather armor values better than warriors scale with base plate armor values), two possibilities come to my mind about the intent of that particular blue post:

Possibility #1 - The dev hadn't seen the formulas for the scaling of base armor and talents for druids and warriors, and didn't realize that there is effectively no possible way with current talents and itemization for the warrior to come out with more armor. Honestly, this surprised me too, so I think it's probably the safer possibility.

Possibility #2 - The dev had knowledge of potential dramatic changes to the scaling of armor or itemization for the two classes that haven't been revealed yet. I think we can definitely expect some changes to the Protection Warrior tree, so perhaps some scaling change on armor isn't so far-fetched.