What Uther did not tell you
A guide to Paladin PVE/DPS in The Burning Crusade
By Hagrin of Nathrezim

We as Paladins of the Silver Hand are always lead to believe our only role in a raid is to stand back and heal the other party members, since the dawning of WoW back in 2004 that was always the case. Recently as we all know an expansion called The Burning Crusade changed all of that, Blizzard adopted the extremist way of engineering the Paladin for the game. Now if you are a Holy Paladin if gear/spec the right way you will only be great if not superb at healing, at the same time if you go for the Protection tree you will be awesome for tanking since now we share the same gear as a warrior therefore the stamina/defense issue we had before is gone. I will make a tanking guide in the future, for now we will focus on PVE/DPS as a RET/PVE Paladin.

NOTE: This in no way is intended for PVP, PVP involves many other aspects of the game which we will not cover here.

First off, to understand how a MELEE based class can DPS we must understand the mechanics of this same concept. The melee DPS thrives each time it lands a hit, landing a hit enables for any other ability, proc, etc to kick in, this being said the primary “PIPELINE” of melee dps is +HIT, look at it as a pipe, the thicker the pipe the more flow goes trough.

Now, as we all know there is a cap in hit, its 5% vs mobs of the same level and increases 1% each level, pay attention: players across the forums state that the highest level mobs including raid bosses is 73, if this is true then you only need 8% to hit at most with a 2 hander, therefore you can get it all in gear and not spec 8 points into prot for precision or get 5% and spec 8 points into prot for precision, i have my own conjurings in boss levels so i tend to stack more +hit than necesary, but this is a personal thing... Once you have ur 8% covered you then stack up AP and crit WITHOUT sacrificing the + hit ok?

Understanding this enables us to see how melee dps works, the more hits you land, the more procs/crits/specials you get in, this all applies to the RET/PVE paladin as well as to fury warriors, rogues, melee shammys etc.
I will list out the PRIORITY of stats in wich you need to gear yourself:

1.- +hit (5% is the cap vs a lvl 70 mob, 8% vs a lvl 73 mob)
2.- Attack Power (STR – Each STR = 2 Attack Power)
3.- Critical Strike (AGI – Each AGI at lvl 70 = 0.7 Critical Strike Rating)
4.- +Spell Damage (It is not as important as Attack Power but helps a bit NOTE: Do not sacrifice any of the other stats above this one for more +spell damage)
5.- Mana (INT – Granted the spec I will give you in this guide will help you a lot to conserve mana, it is always good if you can get extra mana WITHOUT sacrificing any of the top stats)
6.- Stamina (STAM - Yeah we wear plate, but having hp in case we pull agro “I almost always do :S” is good)
7.- Mana Regen (SPI/MP5 – Last but not as important is mana regen, again the spec I will give you will enable you to effectively dps with minor mana)

Now that you know what stats too look for in gear comes the spec…
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/paladin/talents.html?5000000000000000000005300000000000000000005523005100033125331051

This spec has helped me prove myself to all the non believers in my server that now are believers LOL
This spec enables you to conserve mana while getting the most DAMAGE output a paladin can get regardless of spec. This spec is NOT FOR PVP, it has no defensive qualities and/or healing/resilience upgrades.

How do I gear? Since I already gave you the stat priority if you want to take a peek at the gear I am using at the moment well you can ARMORY me in wow website. Simply go to the armory, type in HAGRIN of NATHREZIM and I will come up, I am the only one in all of wow, but just in case some wise ass copies my name just pick the lvl 70 paladin from Nathrezim.


What is the best weapon choice?
Obviously the 2 hander is the best choice for a RET/PVE paladin, If you are a Human make sure it’s a Mace or a Sword (The + to weapon skill increases crit rate and no longer is affected by glancing blow as the old formula - info provided by Aryxymaraki of server Earthen Ring)
What to look for in a 2 hander? Simple!:

1.- Top end and Speed – A slower weapon with higher top en has been proven to hit harder on the long run as well as max out the procs in SoC (info provided by Aryxymaraki of server Earthen Ring)
2.- STATS – As noted above, look for the stats in order as I presented before.
3.- Equip abilities – These fall under the stat priority as well BUT if a proc is involved procs are always good… They can be activated from your specials and your SoC procs so it will be added DPS

As far as enchant goes for your 2H that’s entirely up to you, if you are lacking in AP go for savagery, of you are lacking in crit go for agility, if you like burst dps go for Crusader (some speculate it waqs fixed to reflect the actuall AP increased since last patch).


How do I want to grp in a raid if given the option?
This one is simple… The best classes they can stick in there with you in your party in a raid would be Shadow Priest and Melee Shamman, why? Simple. The Shadow Priest will keep your mana up so you can go all out (yes consecration, exorcism if undead or demon, etc.), the melee shammy will give you heroism (bloodlust in horde) and WINDFURY!!!
Why is Windfury so great for RET/PVE pallys? We use 2 handers as preferred dps weapon, the damage from a 2 hander scales A LOT in a crit, the more swings the more crits etc, it is amazing how much more output you can get with this and heroism together, not only that… SOC DOES PROC OF WINDFURY!!!
Now if you cant get this excellent party arrangement you will STILL do fine in the raid dps…


Should I use CONSUMABLES? For the first raids that you will have to prove yourself as a DPSER don’t… Because ignorant players will say it was the consumables even though mages, locks, etc always use consumables for added dps. After you are accepted as a DPSER go ahead and get some extra goodies just to smoke your mages some more lol.


Now, here is a simple FACT of Paladins that most people (game ignorant people) tend to get mixed…
+spell damage IS NOT the main source of paladin RET/PVE dps, whoever said this is wrong (should be taken out the back and shot, j/k lol). +spell damage is for CASTERS… WE ARE NOT CASTERS… NEVER WHERE AND NEVER WILL BE, WE ARE A MELEE ORIENTED CLASS FOR DAMAGE, for healing yes we are casters, that’s another story… BUT FOR DPS WE ARE MELEE NOT CASTERS…
GET THIS IN YOUR HEADS PALADINS, WE ARE NOT CASTERS FOR DAMAGE, WE ARE MELEE PERIOD…

Sorry for stressing out this point a lot lol, its cause of ignorant paladins like the +spell damage ones that we look like a half assed dps class.

Follow my teachings and I am positive you will succeed in being great dps and give more utility than any other dps class in a raid, use this information to prove why having a paladin RET/PVE DPS is better than a straight DPS class that DOES NOT BRING ANY BENEFIT TO THE RAID (rogue/hunter LOL)
If they ask simply state:

1.- I can keep an extra 3% to crit on the target at all times for all types of dps, melee, ranged and caster.
2.- I have an aura that adds 6% to healing to any target in my grp (scalable, its amazing how much it adds)
3.- I can keep all 3 essential seals on the target with crusader strike (wisdom, light and crusader improved)
4.- I wear plate and can off-tank if needed and don’t die as fast as a clothie if I pull agro
5.- I don’t have a casting time therefore I have a much more chance to cause damage.
6.- AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST! I CAN DO AS MUCH OR DECENT DAMAGE AS YOUR TOP DAMAGE CLASS/PLAYER AND BE UTIL, NUFF SAID

All these facts are TRUE and pretty simple to understand, unless the person you are talking to is an ignorant player or what i like to call a "pre tbc player"(which almost always are mages and hunters lol, weird)

Well my fellow RET/PVE DPS Paladins if you ever need any info or have any questions regarding anything of this guide or paladin in general you can always talk to me on my server, just make an alt on Nathrezim Alliance and send me a tell HAGRIN or ELANTU or and I will gladly answer all of your PVE MELEE DPS questions.

Have fun owning the “DPS Classes”

Hagrin – lvl 70 RET/PVE Paladin on Nathrezim

FLAME ON!

interesting, but can I ask why choose you over a rogue or dps war, assuming there is another pally in the raid? This question is more directed for karazhan raiding.

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Q u o t e:
interesting, but can I ask why choose you over a rogue or dps war, assuming there is another pally in the raid? This question is more directed for karazhan raiding.

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Substantially higher survivability, Lay on Hands, Divine Shield for (oh @@#@!) moments, Divine Intervention to prevent pary wipe, spot cleansing that does not detract from DPS, Sanc Crusader that increases the DPS of all party members by 3%, Imp Sanc Aura that increases the healing done to any party members in its' affect by 6%.

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Q u o t e:
interesting, but can I ask why choose you over a rogue or dps war, assuming there is another pally in the raid? This question is more directed for karazhan raiding.

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the answere is in the guide... they are the last enumerated answeres...

1.- I can keep an extra 3 to crit on the target at all times for all types of dps, melee, ranged and caster.
2.- I have an aura that adds 6% to healing to any target in my grp (scalable, its amazing how much it adds)
3.- I can keep all 3 esential seals on the target with crusader strike (wisdow, light and crusader improved)
4.- I wear plate and can offtank if needed and don’t dies as fast if I pull agro
5.- I don’t have a casting time therefore I have more chance to cause damage.
6.- AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST! I CAN DO AS MUCH DAMAGE AS YOUR TOP DAMAGE CLASS/PLAYER

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Q u o t e:
AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST! I CAN DO AS MUCH DAMAGE AS YOUR TOP DAMAGE CLASS/PLAYER .

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Er... no you can't.

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Q u o t e:

6.- AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST! I CAN DO AS MUCH DAMAGE AS YOUR TOP DAMAGE CLASS/PLAYER

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While I'm an avid ret enthusiast this I will disagree wtih.

If you're out DPSing Fury Warriors, or Combat Rogues who are properly geared and specced there's something wrong. You CAN out DPS Arms Warriors, Hemo Rogues, etc, but not the top end DPSers who know what they're doing.

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Q u o t e:


Er... no you can't.

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Well i can, duno about you... As i said in the guide, dont mock it untill you try it the way i said it, not yours, and please keep this thread ignorance free TY

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Q u o t e:


While I'm an avid ret enthusiast this I will disagree wtih.

If you're out DPSing Fury Warriors, or Combat Rogues who are properly geared and specced there's something wrong. You CAN out DPS Arms Warriors, Hemo Rogues, etc, but not the top end DPSers who know what they're doing.

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You have little faith my brother, gear how im geared and spec how im speced and you will be able too, and it wont be a case that the other players in the raid suck or arent playing well, it will be a case of you are just doing that good of dps...

if this wasnt true we could not finish kharazan and gruuls lair cause we would all suck

Thanks for putting this together. Paladins need more guides like this to combat the rampant stupidity that fills our forums.

How do you report for sticky?

Neverending Mana regen...judgement of Wisdom. Even in the days of Hakkar wisdom was needed.

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Q u o t e:
Neverending Mana regen...judgement of Wisdom. Even in the days of Hakkar wisdom was needed.

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Yes fellow horde pally, its good, also talents in ret enable you to spend so LITTLE mana, go see the spec i posted on the guide...

Great post, and in my opinion everything is correct. +Hit should be primary thing your concerned with. Especially since you HAVE to hit with your crusader strike to keep up those judgements, because if you miss, one of your main contributions to the raid is gone.

Ever since day one I've set my eye on showing whatever guild I join that paladins can dps and add some great utility to the raid.

Thank you for this guide. Cookie for you!

I've had similar equipment to yours when I was Ret, and no you cannot out DPS good actual DPS players without windfury, you can with windfury totem but then an arms warrior would outdamage you in that place. Is the utility enough to make up for the difference? Unless you have a shadow priest you'll also be running dry of mana pretty quickly and become useless, whereas a warrior/rogue is like a freakin energizer bunny.

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Q u o t e:
Great post, and in my opinion everything is correct. +Hit should be primary thing your concerned with. Especially since you HAVE to hit with your crusader strike to keep up those judgements, because if you miss, one of your main contributions to the raid is gone.

Ever since day one I've set my eye on showing whatever guild I join that paladins can dps and add some great utility to the raid.

Thank you for this guide. Cookie for you!

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spread the word :D, all this time researching has enabled me to change minds in my server, let alone my guild, im one of the main dpsers for all raids... once we 1 shoted shade of aran so fast it was impresive and gratifiying...

but i hope some people actually try this before they start saying BS, cause im confident if they follow my advice they cant fail...

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Q u o t e:
I've had similar equipment to yours when I was Ret, and no you cannot out DPS good actual DPS players without windfury, you can with windfury totem but then an arms warrior would outdamage you in that place. Is the utility enough to make up for the difference? Unless you have a shadow priest you'll also be running dry of mana pretty quickly and become useless, whereas a warrior/rogue is like a freakin energizer bunny.

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similar is not good enough... it has to be exact...

i can do it without the shammy in my grp... and yes we do kil bosses as fast as any other raid... im positive you where not following everything said in this guide... positive...

but hey, dont take my word for it, ask my raid leader on my server... that simple...

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Q u o t e:
I've had similar equipment to yours when I was Ret, and no you cannot out DPS good actual DPS players without windfury, you can with windfury totem but then an arms warrior would outdamage you in that place. Is the utility enough to make up for the difference? Unless you have a shadow priest you'll also be running dry of mana pretty quickly and become useless, whereas a warrior/rogue is like a freakin energizer bunny.

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I've run with an arms warrior and doubled his DPS consistently.

Also Mages, Hunters, Warlocks, Shamans, and Priests all have Mana bars, so this is not a crippling Paladin Specific reasoning to not bring someone to a raid.

When I talk about the things you brought up, I’ll try to do it in sections to make it easier to follow. I would also like to point out, that I was very much PvE Ret. Spec until recently when I moved to a holy/ret build because my guild is short on healers.

Your priority of stats

While I agree that +hit is important (obviously if you miss, you aren’t doing dmg) I find that +hit is MORE important for duel wielders since when you DW, you have a lower hit chance. That is why a lot of PvE fury warrior and rogue gear has a lot of it. I personally will not give up +otherstats to make room for +hit, but that is a personal preference. Sure, I may miss 1-2 more times, but the hits that I DO land are more powerful. Additionally, judgment of SoC (which is a nice addition to our dps) is considered a spell, and is not affected by +hit.

Another important thing to mention, that if you are BEHIND your target, they are unable to parry your attacks, which is a nice ‘substitute’ of sorts for not having as much +hit.

Other than how high you placed +hit, I don’t have many objections to your stats priority.



Your Spec

I like the Ret. Tree that you have used, however, (and I know you like +hit), I don’t like the points in the protection tree. This is simply due to the fact that redoubt is completely useless to a PvE Ret pally since we are swinging a 2h. In my mind, that is a complete waste of 5 points. You can, if you want, make up the +hit with gear and use your talents in other areas. I would give up the +hit bonus, and get Divine Intellect (more mana = more dps for longer fights) and perhaps a lower crit dmg for when we DO pull agro, and that mob crits us. I know not the BEST way to use those last 3 points, but at the same time, I think it’s better than wasting 5 in redoubt.


Weapon Choice

Yup, a high-top-end 2h weapon is the way to go.

Swingspeed, however, plays an important roll. The way SoC works is on a “Proc Per Minute” system. Essentially, this means that if you if you stand there swinging, you will get, on average, the same number of procs in one minute no matter what the swingspeed. The SoC proc is, on average, about 7 per minute. This means that per swing, slower weapons have a higher chance for SoC to proc per swing. A 3.8 swingspeed will have a 44.3% chance to proc while a 2.0 weapon has a 23.3% chance to proc.

Now, that means too, that the faster weapon (although proccing less per hit) will swing faster and still have the same number of proc’s overall. That is correct. However, faster weapons will have lower Top-End than slower ones of the same DPS. To see what I mean, compare Thunder with the Lionheart. Both the same dps, but the lion has a faster swingspeed, and therefore lower top-end dmg, resulting in smaller SoC proc numbers.

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28440 Thunder

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=28428 Lionheart


And your point that “Crusader Strike makes up for this” is, I’m sorry, false. CS is based on weapon dmg. A slower weapon will have a higher top-end dmg, thus having larger CS hits as well. Also, CS does not reset your swing timer, so it doesn’t not make up for having a faster weapon.

Your enchants are ok as well, however, I have heard that using crusader doesn’t do as much at 70 as it did at 60, and therefore isn’t as useful. (although I’m not 100% sure on this one). However, a Crusader proc on a slower weapon increases our strength for a time, but only for about 2 swings with a slow weapon. Nice for the CS, but I prefer to have a weapon that is a constant increase.


Party Members

Yeah, shamans are great. I would also put feral druid in your mix for the +5% to crit, and a fury warrior for battle shout.


Spell Damage

From the way you said this, it makes it sound like we should be wearing all warrior gear and grouping with a shadow priest so we don’t run out of mana.

Spell dmg IS a large part of our dmg. You mentioned “going all out” to include consecration. That’s spell dmg. Our judgments are all spell dmg. The SoC proc acts like a physical dmg in that it can be blocked/parried etc, however, it is holy dmg. Exorcism is spell dmg. Crusader strike has spell dmg.

In fact, the only part of our dmg that ISN’T spell dmg is our auto attack. To ignore this part of our dps would be very unwise. That’s why we have Judgment of the Crusader and Sanctity aura. Both that increase our HOLY dmg. And our holy dmg is affected by… yup, you guessed it… +spell dmg gear. In all respect… if holy dmg isn’t our main source of dmg…. What is? With all the modifiers to holy dmg, spell dmg is very important. And I don’t consider myself to be an “ignorant person”

Take Ret over other dps classes

Overall, I agree with your list. A couple things…

1) We can’t offtank very well with no points in Prot in raid sitiatons. I have, in tanking gear, over 12000 armor and 380ish +def. and I get killed by some of the mobs. It’s not the agro… no problems there. It’s the fact that we don’t have Holy Shield, +5% to parry, and many other talents to mitigate dmg. Try tanking the ushers before the opera event sometime…. Not going to happen

2) We CAN’T offer being ranged dps like a hunter can. A hunter will take less dmg than a melee class because of staying out of the AOE cleave range of the bosses. That is a huge thing on a healer intensive fight. And no… we can’t shouldn’t back and help heal. The reason they took a Ret pally over a ‘pure dps class’ is to do DPS.

3) We are better than pure DPS classes. Well… that is a conversation for a different thread. I will say that I disagree. A hybrid can be GOOD at everything, but shouldn’t be able to be the BEST at everything. A similarly geared rouge/hunter should be able to do more dmg. Not only because they ARE dps classes, but because they have an ability to get rid of the threat they build… therefore allowing them to do more dmg before they hit the ‘threat ceiling’ and pull agro. And no, BoSalv doesn’t count for us, since we can give it to a rogue/hunter, and they are back to the same playing field we are with it on.


A couple overall things to mention…

1) pulling agro doesn’t mean you are a great dps class. You should be able to control your agro to keep the threat on the tank. You say you pull agro on every right. In all honesty, I don’t think that’s something to be proud of.

2) I mentioned it earlier, but your overall “ZOMG LOLZ we own DPS Classes” style that you wrote this (in parts) takes away from your credibility as a reliable source.


and there... that's my input :)

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Q u o t e:
While i have learned recently abou the +hit rating throught Enhanced shaman dps and intented to remake a blood elf paladin to play 2v2 along side with my friend (shaman)

I will ask you does hit rating actually effect Soc as it effects the hit chance on Windfury

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Yes it does... As stated on the guide, it is the "pipeline" for everything regarding melee, including procs

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Q u o t e:
Reserved for later

but what I like: is that you took the time to put this together.

What I don't like: I find some of your information to be off center of what is correct, and that you call some people retards and that some people should be 'taken out back and shot". In all honesty, remarks like this take away from your credibility, they don't add to it.


I'll respond in detail later about what I mean in regards to some of this, but I'm running out the door atm.

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i can see where you are coming from, i guess the kid in me got the best of me and decided out of anger to say these things, pay no mind to they, its just letting off some steam for the people that dont really know but just have an opinion...

In any way, if its not true how come its working? simple...