---

Q u o t e:


See http://moonchicken.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/an-in-depth-analysis-of-eclipse-math-included/

if I did it correctly the buff from Eclipse makes Wrath very worthwhile, even in Raid situations. Putting 1 point in might not be so bad though.

---

Man. I just realized that Eclipse is a talent that is better with 1 point instead of 3.

However, that analysis does not include raid buffs (10% starfire damage from curse primarily) and I feel you should use a much higher spell damage - raid buffed, 1,000 base is *extremely* low. As you said, starfire scales better then wrath with damage, so I would like to see numbers at higher SD values.

---

Q u o t e:
Tree bloat is always present when new talents are first introduced. In fact, reducing the amount of bloat in all talent trees for every single class was the last thing that Blizzard did in TBC. Yes we should post and inform Blizzard about the talent bloat is, and yes we should make suggestions about where to best reduce the bloat, but don't do so in an 'end of the world' manner. We know that they will eventually reduce the amount of talent points needed to spend in the tree. It might not become perfect as we want (such as with the choice between IFF now) but all of the most important talents will be reachable.

---

The problem is this isn't a new issue though. The balance tree has always been bloated. To all the people saying that we can still get "all" the important talents - that isn't the point. The point is that we should be able to have some reasonable amount of variation in our specs where we can pick something up because we like it. Nature's Grasp is going to be even more useful in the expansion since roots with work indoors (can save us in 5 mans, at least, if we get aggro). However, if you want a serious raiding build (or likely PvP too) you can't really afford to take this talent without sacrificing something much more worthwhile. It's not game breaking or even much of a big deal to miss this talent, but it would be nice to be able to get it if we wanted to. It's like sockets, there are better choices for gems but if someone really wanted more of a certain stat, they could go for it.

---

Q u o t e:
Both Lifebloom and Insect Swarm are amazingly efficient as they are. Not to mention, you have to consider all other talents when making changes such as this. In WotLK it will be possible for a Druid to max out Moonglow and Lunar Guidance and still get all of the most important HoT talents in Restoration, including ToL. This would give Restoration Druids an option for a 29% reduction on the mana cost of Lifebloom. Restoration Druids already regenerate more mana inside the 5 second rule than they spend casting 1 Lifebloom, increasing the possibility of their efficiency as well is something that Blizzard might feel is too much. And, honestly, I am happy with not having Lifebloom on there.

Insect Swarm I can see as being needed to add on, but the spell is already amazingly efficient at base not to mention it still has the horrible problem of poor scaling. So while I agree with this change, it isn't something I care all that much about because overall, IS already is great DPM, but horrible damage and is dropped from rotations because of it.

---

I know Efejel didn't address this, but personally I feel the bigger issue is Hurricane and Typhoon. Lifebloom and IS are already uber mana efficient.

---

Q u o t e:
Actually, Brambles is really amazing for the extra damage it adds to Force of Nature right now. Still, all classes have talents that suck. Not saying this makes it okay for Blizzard to implement worthless talents, but honestly, they already did change it to be beyond amazingly better than what it used to be. Putting two points into Brambles is currently the best two points that you can spend at that level of the talent tree.

---

The reason I personally don't like this talent lies more with the bigger issue that trees suck. Their damage isn't very impressive, they die extremely easily to any AoE and we can't even control them. I use them in PvE but there are very few instances they live long enough to do anything worth the GCD. I woudln't say those are the best two points to use especially with roots possibly becoming a viable CC there will be times where you will want no pushback even for a PvE build.

i think we should just accept whats been given to us instead of asking for more

---

Q u o t e:
i think we should just accept whats been given to us instead of asking for more

---

Accepting what you get in early beta is silly. They have beta so that people can give them constructive feedback, and then Blizzard can decide whether or not to listen to it. :o)

Tantrums, crying, yelling, protesting, or otherwise being non-constructive isn't helpful overall. However, some feedback is definitely encouraged and welcome.

---

Q u o t e:


Accepting what you get in early beta is silly. They have beta so that people can give them constructive feedback, and then Blizzard can decide whether or not to listen to it. :o)

Tantrums, crying, yelling, protesting, or otherwise being non-constructive isn't helpful overall. However, some feedback is definitely encouraged and welcome.

---

just saying that if these builds do pass through then we shouldn't be dissatisfied from what we've gotten

In terms of Starfall, I'd agree that it is somewhat disappointing with the Beta 1 change, but at the same time, I think it's a bit unique:

* It will evidently be useful against even a single target (or two), while most other AoE is insanely inefficient against a single target.

* It's more like some death-knight-ish NPC's shadow damage aura than anything else, as it follows you and operates automatically.

* You can combine it with other things, such as Typhoon, Barkskin, and Hurricane. In fact, you could pop it, then shift into a form: Bear, Cat, or even Travel.

I wonder what happens if you shift to flight form? (It's instant, right, so you could even shift out of flight form, pop it, then shift back, as long as you weren't in combat.)

Not saying that makes it worthwhile even if it has poor AoE damage, but my guess is Blizzard went into the alpha with it pegged to the top limit -- just a bit OP -- and they've now pulled it back to the bottom limit -- under-powered -- and will then try interpolate the proper setting. They seem to purposefully overshoot a lot lately.

---

Q u o t e:


I wonder what happens if you shift to flight form? (It's instant, right, so you could even shift out of flight form, pop it, then shift back, as long as you weren't in combat.)

---

this is a good question. I'll check this once the server reset is done & I can reliably get back in to test. Right now, flight form is broken, so I can use it in parts of Northrend (I'm expecting this bug to get fixed in the next build).

Well destro locks got nerfed hardcore..to get the bonus dmg from a demo sacrifice they need like 35 pts in demo which is impossible to get some of the better shadow bolt improvments...

---

Q u o t e:
Well destro locks got nerfed hardcore..to get the bonus dmg from a demo sacrifice they need like 35 pts in demo which is impossible to get some of the better shadow bolt improvments...

---

what does this have to do with balance druids? LOL

Warlocks are so OP they even overpower our threads.

But seriously, I don't see how skipping the new AOEs for dreamstate can be a good idea -- While I'm going to let the AOE to Mages and Locks in 25 mans (except on some pulls like in Hyjal I wish I had a good AOE), Starfall isn't *technically* an AOE only because I can see it as an exceptional DPS boost on a single target (eg. boss).

Typhoon seems like a good way to save yourself in raids to help the tanks get aggro back. But I can see it being counterproductive to worry about it's damage (which is why I may or may not get Gale Winds).

Owlkin Frenzy really just depends on if we get hit or not. I think I'm on the first page saying this. I think we're going to get hit a lot only because of Blizzards new talents are "generally" about AOE healing or getting quick heals off. But who knows :P

Eclipse seems too big of a hassle to bother with (And I don't know why I'd want to shift to nature damage since Curse of Shadows will be up in a raid environment.)

---

Q u o t e:
Perhaps this means this talent is being moved to the feral tree? Or am I just being too overly hopeful?

---

Faerie Fire Feral didn't used to work with IFF (didn't matter much since you couldn't really get them both in the same build anyway). The patch note likely refers to an internal build that never made it to the Alpha community that had FFF partially working with IFF.

---

Q u o t e:

Owlkin Frenzy really just depends on if we get hit or not. I think I'm on the first page saying this. I think we're going to get hit a lot only because of Blizzards new talents are "generally" about AOE healing or getting quick heals off. But who knows :P

Eclipse seems too big of a hassle to bother with (And I don't know why I'd want to shift to nature damage since Curse of Shadows will be up in a raid environment.)

---

Owlkin frenzy seems to proc a lot when I'm soloing on the beta server. However, that's because I usually let myself get hit a lot when I'm soloing.

I need to see if this procs very often from incedental damage when we're instancing (5-mans?). Otherwise, it may end up not being useful in the long run. This needs more testing.

Eclipse needs to get redesigned a little better before it's likely to be high-end PvE useful.

To add to the posters point above me, (which I agree with 100%), the trees also are threat-free aggro. I can toss them on at the beginning of the fight and if they last their full duration they do a considerable chunk of threat free damage. Plus they are great in PVP (which isn't my primary concern, but hey a PVE talent that has a PVP use is ALWAYS nice).


By the way, just a strange coincidence Rush - The Trees is currently playing on my media player.

i though ef left or something...

---

Q u o t e:
The problem is this isn't a new issue though. The balance tree has always been bloated. To all the people saying that we can still get "all" the important talents - that isn't the point. The point is that we should be able to have some reasonable amount of variation in our specs where we can pick something up because we like it. Nature's Grasp is going to be even more useful in the expansion since roots with work indoors (can save us in 5 mans, at least, if we get aggro). However, if you want a serious raiding build (or likely PvP too) you can't really afford to take this talent without sacrificing something much more worthwhile. It's not game breaking or even much of a big deal to miss this talent, but it would be nice to be able to get it if we wanted to. It's like sockets, there are better choices for gems but if someone really wanted more of a certain stat, they could go for it.

---

Sure, you can use the jewelcrafting analogy... but there's more to it. Yes, you can choose whatever gems you want to have whatever stats you want, but by choosing less-than-optimal gems, you are hurting yourself by choice. On the same token, by choosing less-than-optimal PvE balance talents, you get what you want but are again hurting yourself by choice. I don't see what's wrong or unfair about this.

Also, why can't you get Nature's Grasp? You can get it easily since there are 3 upper-tier trash points... in fact, you can improve it twice... unless you call something like Control of Nature or Brambles as required.

That being said, it would be nice if I didn't have to invest 16 points into Restoration and Intensity/Subtlety could be swapped. That would free up 3 points that I could invest in some of these balance talents I regard as optional for PvE (Typhoon, Force of Nature, Starfall, etc.). It would be nice, but not absolutely required.

Switch Intensity with iMotW, and Master Shapeshifter with Subtlety, reduce Moonfury and Vengeance to 2 point talents, and switch Moonglow with Brambles.

No moar bloat.

Honestly most of the bloat is in resto

---

Q u o t e:

Subtlety now only affects healing spells.

---

exactly... Hence why make it not in the way for balance getting master shapeshifter