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Q u o t e:
I don't believe that catering to the needs of a small minority of players will result in overall player satisfaction in the game.

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I believe that catering to as many groups as possible is what has made this game successful.

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Q u o t e:


I don't believe that catering to the needs of a small minority of players will result in overall player satisfaction in the game.

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This isn't catering the needs of the small minorty. Eliminating 10 mans all together is catering to the needs of a small minority. Making it so that 25 mans have to be done first is Blizzards way of saying to teh hardcore base:

'Thanks for sticking around through all the #%!* we've put you through in the last expansion. We're glad you're still here, so as a token of our esteem, here's somethign to remind you that you are just as important as any one paying for the game.'

Something favoring a small group is not 'catering to the minorty and therefore bad business decsion,' it's a reward to a loyal consumer base for staying after basically being screwed in the ass through all of TBC.

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Q u o t e:

I would bet there is a timer mechanism as well. =)

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Sure, but there's nothing accomplished by this hurdle. At least the AQ gates were a server-effort with the ultimate reward of crashing a zone. This is just.. if you have hardcore 25-man guilds, it makes no difference. If you don't, you're twiddling your thumbs waiting for a timer. There's no upside, only a potential down.

I don't care if someone in a 25 man raid has better gear than me.

If my 10 man gear allows me to progress into new 10 man content and look kinda cool, then it is a success to me.

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Q u o t e:



As of now there is no way to tell because there aren't encounters designed for both 10 and 25 man content. All people are doing right now is conjecture, and the closest thing to an arguement from the 10 mans require people to do more camp is:

In Kara, if three DPSers die early, it's probably a wipe.

In Gruuls, if three DPSers die early, it's ok.

What we rarely see is: In SWP if three DPSers die early, it's almost definetly a wipe.

However, when you factor in that a 25 man is more about the group than the individual. Each person is a smaller cog in a 25 man, but the machine is the same size. Each person does the same amount, there is just a greater impact if they die. That's the only semi-valid arguement I've heard from that side, and like the counter arguement, it's all theoritical until we see a fight designed for 25 vs 10 people.

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Kara = T4 content and difficulty for 10 mans.
Gruul = T4 content and difficulty for 25mans.

^-- These two are comparable and can be used to compare against one another.

SWP = T6.5 content and difficulty for 25mans.
??? = T6.5 content and difficulty for 10mans.

^-- This is why you don't see people saying "In SWP if three DPSers die early, it's almost definetly a wipe." You can't compare Sunwell to Karazhan to prove your point. If there was a 10man Tier6.5 instance 1 DPS death would most likely result in a wipe.

I'm not saying 10mans should give better/worse loot than 25mans, I was just commenting on the INDIVIDUAL player participation in both formats. I personally find myself having to pay more attention in a ZA Bear run than I do in BT or Hyjal thats all.

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Q u o t e:


Sure, but there's nothing accomplished by this hurdle. At least the AQ gates were a server-effort with the ultimate reward of crashing a zone. This is just.. if you have hardcore 25-man guilds, it makes no difference. If you don't, you're twiddling your thumbs waiting for a timer. There's no upside, only a potential down.

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Obviously it depends on the timer and the progression of the 10 man groups on a particular server. Without seeing it in action we won' t know if it is a hurdle or not.

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Q u o t e:


Having to wait to do content in order to please a much smaller number of raiders doing 25 man content does not please me, it does not please me at all.

There is no technical reason to hold 10 man raids back, so the only reason would be a social reason.

I think you will find that you will have far more displeased customers over having to wait for the 10 man version, than you will with elitist individuals that want to lock out others from content.

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The reason I can see this happening is they probably have this type of set up:

First tier instances
25 --- > tier whatever gear, lets call it 7
10 ----> gives some blue half tier gear.

Second tier instances
25 ----> Tier 8
10 ----> Tier 7

Third Tier instances
25 ----> Tier 9
10 ----> Tier 8

etc etc.

The problem comes about if both tier 1 and 2 instances are available content, just needing attunement to get through, then you want to some how limit people on the 25 man bandwagon from just gearing up twice as fast in ten man content, before even cracking their teeth on the new 25 man content. It speeds up progression faster than Blizzard might want. They need to regulate this speed so they can put out new content to match.

For example, in case its not clear. To raid the second teir 10 man, all you have to do is a quest chain that involves beating the teir 1 instance. Same goes for the 25 man. Now you have 25 people, making progress in the teir 1 instance, and for fun they can go in and probably do pretty well in the 10 man instance since its tuned to a lower gear level. Once they unlock the next teired 10 man, for themselves through whatever attunement quest, all of a sudden they can get the same gear in that 10 man than they were getting in the 25 man they were in. This could have a pretty disastrous effect on raiding.

Of course one solution is to implement a larger gear gap.... but that has its own problems. The gap will also be forced to grow larger and larger as the instances progress. No one really wants that.

If you require the 25 man to be beaten first then the 25 man track players will have to focus on advancing on that track. Where as the 10 mans will follow in the footsteps. Since the idea is to just allow more people to see the content with more ease. This isn't a horrible thing as 25 mans still remain the focus of progression, but 10 man versions come out so people can get decent loot and participate in the story. There is also less reason for a 25 man raid group to ever go into the 10 mans, since they've unlocked the next 25 man, and the 10 man instance that unlcoked with it drops strictly inferior gear to the 25 man they just beat. So it keeps that progression going.

This might also have a neat effect of galvanizing the servers. People in more casual guilds can cheer on the more hardcore guilds to open up the new instance so they can participate. The idea that hardcore guilds are going to purposefully lock people out of content is impossible since you can link the quest that opens up the 10 man to the quest that attunes the raid to the next 25 man. HEck, assuming the 10 man instances are made sufficieintly difficult, then you might even see the people progressing in the 25 mans at the same pace as the people in the 10 mans. This would be the ideal in this situation as you don't want people to be stuck with a completed instance, waiting for another guild to finish their instance.

Wow, Sorry about the walls of text. :)

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Q u o t e:


Kara = T4 content and difficulty for 10 mans.
Gruul = T4 content and difficulty for 25mans.

^-- These two are comparable and can be used to compare against one another.

SWP = T6.5 content and difficulty for 25mans.
??? = T6.5 content and difficulty for 10mans.

^-- This is why you don't see people saying "In SWP if three DPSers die early, it's almost definetly a wipe." You can't compare Sunwell to Karazhan to prove your point. If there was a 10man Tier6.5 instance 1 DPS death would most likely result in a wipe.

I'm not saying 10mans should give better/worse loot than 25mans, I was just commenting on the INDIVIDUAL player participation in both formats. I personally find myself having to pay more attention in a ZA Bear run than I do in BT or Hyjal thats all.

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I understand this. I'm sorry if my point wasn't made perfectly clear. You can argue that their is more personal responsibilty in a 10 man raid instance than there is in a 25 man raid instance (and in most cases you would be correct), my point was that raiding is a group effort, not a personal one and therefore the value of the group is more important than the value of the individual. It's like a tennis match compared to a basketball game. A game of singles tennis has much more personal responsibiltiy than a basketball game, but a basketball game not inherintly easier or harder than a tennis match. it's all subjective based on other factors.

This is the first I'd heard that 10 mans will only become available after the instance has been done with a 25 man group.

I hope this isn't how it plays out. I, and a good number of my friends/guildies, were looking forward to concentrating on 10 manning. The large group concept (first 40 then 25 man) is something I just don't enjoy any more. Seems simple odds dictate there's always at least three jerks and 2 chronic afker's in any 25 man group and I'm done dealing with them.

Why dangle the 10 man carrot then put this kind of contingency in place? The gear quality issue will have to be resolved regardless... so just do it.

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Q u o t e:


Do you really not see an issue with setting such a gear gap like the current arena system. ITs really stupid to give such advantages to people unless there is a small difference of say 10Item levels.

The Current Gearing system is so broken its not even funny and you guys better shape the hell up and fix it for this new expansion.

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ooooo e thug

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Q u o t e:


Obviously it depends on the timer and the progression of the 10 man groups on a particular server. Without seeing it in action we won' t know if it is a hurdle or not.

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The potential results are:

1) Irrelevant; or
2) Drawback.

As a 10-man player on a release server with sunwell guilds, I expect to see result 1. But there's no positive result available. Just irrelevance or hassle. I don't see the point of implementing something that is, in a best case scenario, irrelevant.

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Q u o t e:


I don't believe that catering to the needs of a small minority of players will result in overall player satisfaction in the game.

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Ideally you would like to satisfy everyone, minority and majority alike. My suggestion, locking only one boss per 10-man instance until he's killed in 25-man mode, is an attempt at that. Of course, someone will be dissatisfied no matter what you do, but that's beside the point.

As a 10-man raider myself, I would be very frustrated if I my guild were ready to try a new instance, but the whole place, and every other instance of comparable difficulty, was locked because the 25-man guilds aren't there yet. It ties your progression to someone else's performance whom you've never met, which is neither fair nor fun.

But if the unlocking applies only to a single boss, one that we don't really NEED to kill in order to progress, well then it's not so bad. It's somewhat analogous to how some guilds are going from SSC/TK to MH/BT without ever killing Vashj and Kael'thas, since the attunements were removed. Those guilds obviously don't feel cheated by missing the Vashj and Kael'thas encounters, since they are choosing not to fight them.

I suspect that the 10-mans won't drop tiered gear at all, tier 7+ will only come from the 25-mans. I would expect to see the same difference in gear as we have with ZA vs SSC/TK right now.

The bigger question in all of this is how long will the expansion last? BC is still going because people are trying to get through as much content as possible. If everybody clears the WotLK dungeons on 10-man version, what percentage will want to go back and do the 25-man version? Will the expansion have less longevity than BC?

The real problem with the larger scale raids in pve content is pure and simple the logistics. As so many have said it is so much easier to get together 10 competent people than it is to get together 25, and easier to get 25 than 40. What comes into play in tier 6 content is an added level of competence being required, being “situational awareness”.

Let me repeat something I said earlier. Kael’thas is a harder fight than is Illidan. Let that sink in.
He is a tier 5 Boss. Actually, I did not think Illidan was really hard. All that it takes is 25 competent (not top notch) players with appropriate gear. By the time you get to this guy, you will have that gear. The tanks have the hardest job on that encounter, and it is not that hard really.

When you can find 25 minimally competent players, who are truly situationally aware, you can expect to clear MH and BT, assuming you start with Tier 5 level gear.

It is interesting to learn that logistics is intentionally an element of the risk/reward evaluation and valuation that goes into WoW instance encounters.

Anyway, as far as gear, once I cleared MH and bT a few times, I stepped away from hardcore and went
to my present Guild to play with friends and try to help them. I am having fun again. I am not going to get any gear upgrades probably now until WoTLK. That is a fair price to pay to have fun with friends. There is a price to raiding hardcore. You do not get to play merely with good people and friends, but you must sacrifice that to play with those other players who share your level of dedication and effort, and who are also minimally competent.

Even at the hardcore level most of the people are good people. But the game does become more ruthless and cutthroat. That is a fact. And keeping your raid slot is a seriously competitive thing.

Why do I wish for 10 man raids as hard as the hardest 25 man, and with equal loot?

Because I can easily team with competent and dedicated friends and do it. We might even challenge for progression. But I cannot do it when as many as 24 others are required.

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Q u o t e:
This is the first I'd heard that 10 mans will only become available after the instance has been done with a 25 man group.

I hope this isn't how it plays out. I, and a good number of my friends/guildies, were looking forward to concentrating on 10 manning. The large group concept (first 40 then 25 man) is something I just don't enjoy any more. Seems simple odds dictate there's always at least three jerks and 2 chronic afker's in any 25 man group and I'm done dealing with them.

Why dangle the 10 man carrot then put this kind of contingency in place? The gear quality issue will have to be resolved regardless... so just do it.

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I think what we will see is the initial raid instance of Naxx will be available to both 10 man and 25 man. Some content in the next 10 man may be unavailable until something has been completed via the 25man raid (maybe just the initial Naxx run completed in 25) or a timer has completed.

Will it be a hurdle? Only time will tell and I bet that if it is a hurdle that is affecting a significant number of people negatively, then things will change. Remember that without seeing it in action we have no idea what the effect will really be.

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Q u o t e:


As a 10-man raider myself, I would be very frustrated if I my guild were ready to try a new instance, but the whole place, and every other instance of comparable difficulty, was locked because the 25-man guilds aren't there yet. It ties your progression to someone else's performance whom you've never met, which is neither fair nor fun.

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While I agree with this point, and it would be a hurdle that would need to be overcome, how is it really any different from people on the cutting edge of 25 man content having to wait for blizzard to release new instances? They're depending on people they've never met before. On some level, thats going to happen no matter what.

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Q u o t e:
I suspect that the 10-mans won't drop tiered gear at all, tier 7+ will only come from the 25-mans. I would expect to see the same difference in gear as we have with ZA vs SSC/TK right now.

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They have actually said that 10 man will be about 1 tier below 25 man gear and gear from the same level of raid (say Naxx) will share the same skins for both 10 man and 25 man. That seems to show that both will be epic in ilevel as well as be new (yet tied together) for each level of progression.

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Q u o t e:


This:
10-man ----> 10-man ----> 10-man

Though there has been talk about restricting access to 10 man next raid content until 25 man raid content has unlocked it. I would suspect there would be a timer as well for those realms that don't have sufficient 25 man raiders.

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That's actually an interesting idea. I suppose it would work, though I sort of liked my above model. It would allow smaller guilds to continue progressing, without having to try and have mass-recruitment for the sake of having 25+ folks. A guild could slowly work its way towards Icecrown, beating the 10-man counterpart, then be able to attempt the 25-man version, or at least be successful in the *previous* instance's 25-man raid.

"10 -> 25 -> 10 -> 25 -> 10 -> 25" just seems like a poor model to me. Not very consistent. By having two raids which drop equivalent gear, but in different order (25-man gets their gear sooner, but 10-man can still obtain it), it opens up some versatility. You can opt for "slow and steady", or go all-out and achieve your long-term goal quicker.

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Q u o t e:


That's actually an interesting idea. I suppose it would work, though I sort of liked my above model. It would allow smaller guilds to continue progressing, without having to try and have mass-recruitment for the sake of having 25+ folks. A guild could slowly work its way towards Icecrown, beating the 10-man counterpart, then be able to attempt the 25-man version, or at least be successful in the *previous* instance's 25-man raid.

"10 -> 25 -> 10 -> 25 -> 10 -> 25" just seems like a poor model to me. Not very consistent. By having two raids which drop equivalent gear, but in different order (25-man gets their gear sooner, but 10-man can still obtain it), it opens up some versatility. You can opt for "slow and steady", or go all-out and achieve your long-term goal quicker.

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Yeah, the gear has been stated (at least in early reports) to be the same models with different colors/effects attached but actually be part of the same set so you can have 2 pieces of the 10 man set and 1 piece of the 25 man set and have a 3 set bonus.