Thanks. I'll check it out when I'm off work, since for some reason that page is borked beyond belief on this computer.

your personal macros look awesome - you've obviously given them a great deal of thought ;)

can you explain to us why you use the /targetenemy [dead] and /targetenemy [noharm] in a lot of your 'tab/abilty ' macros?

/startattack [harm,nodead]
/script SetCVar("targetNearestDistance", 10)
/targetenemy [dead]
/targetenemy [noharm]
/script SetCVar("targetNearestDistance", 41)
/cast Hamstring

;)

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Q u o t e:
your personal macros look awesome - you've obviously given them a great deal of thought ;)

can you explain to us why you use the /targetenemy [dead] and /targetenemy [noharm] in a lot of your 'tab/abilty ' macros?

/startattack [harm,nodead]
/script SetCVar("targetNearestDistance", 10)
/targetenemy [dead]
/targetenemy [noharm]
/script SetCVar("targetNearestDistance", 41)
/cast Hamstring

;)

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Well, this was a modified version of your tab macro in your thread. I used the logic gates (is that the right term?) in imitating it for my own purposes... Here's what it *should* be doing, and appears to do, even if the code is not as efficient as it should be:

Start Attack (if the target is hostile and not dead)
Target New Target (within 10 yards, if current target is Dead or Friendly)

Whether or not it works, no idea, but it seems to. Even if it doesn't, it doesn't do anything erratic, at least. :)

so it only retargets when your target is dead or becomes friendly? ingenious ;)

Cider- what addon is it that shows a timer for your cooldowns on your hotbar? I've not been able to find it just randomly poking around curse-gaming...

Great info. This is exactly what Ive been looking into for the last weeks. Its great to finally get real info on Shield Slam, and a lot of other infos I didnt know about to boot.

Ive been trying to figure a build with Shield Slam for myself. One that tanks well and could have other uses, such as PvP. One of the builds you posted caught my eye (the one with the video) but Ive got a few questions.

- Anticipation : Why? Ive always been under the impression that this talent was a bandaid to get to the desired Defense number if gear didnt get you there on its own. What I mean is, if you could get 490 WITHOUT anticipation .. wouldnt your points be or more use somewhere else?

- Imp. Demo Shout. I cant seem to ever like this talent. Nor even the skill. I know what it does, I even use it sometimes, but Im never impressed with how much damage it actually removes from my opponents hits. It shows, but Im never impressed.

- Blood Craze. I had that one for a long while, back when I was fury. I ended up taking something else because I didnt like the numbers. 3% of, say 10k hp, is a mere 300 hp given back in 6 seconds. 300 hp nowadays isnt much. Its not even close to much. In tanking and with 490 def you will take no crits, so I would assume you put this in for the PvP aspect of the build. But how can 300 hp per 6 seconds be good? I mean even in a long fight I MIGHT get 1k hp from it if its always up due to crits. But if Im taking that many crits .. methinks I blew up and Im now in the spirit world watching the chunks of my carcass fall down from the sky.

Im not saying I think the build is bad. Im trying to understand certain choices in it.

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Q u o t e:
- Anticipation : Why? Ive always been under the impression that this talent was a bandaid to get to the desired Defense number if gear didnt get you there on its own. What I mean is, if you could get 490 WITHOUT anticipation .. wouldnt your points be or more use somewhere else?

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Since there is the tier restriction involved, it's not really a zero-sum game here... the only other "somewhere else" you can put those points is in Improved Bloodrage and Tactical Mastery. So the evaluation is mainly between which of those three talents you want to put points in, in order to progress down the tree.

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Q u o t e:
Great info. This is exactly what Ive been looking into for the last weeks. Its great to finally get real info on Shield Slam, and a lot of other infos I didnt know about to boot.

Ive been trying to figure a build with Shield Slam for myself. One that tanks well and could have other uses, such as PvP. One of the builds you posted caught my eye (the one with the video) but Ive got a few questions.

- Anticipation : Why? Ive always been under the impression that this talent was a bandaid to get to the desired Defense number if gear didnt get you there on its own. What I mean is, if you could get 490 WITHOUT anticipation .. wouldnt your points be or more use somewhere else?

- Imp. Demo Shout. I cant seem to ever like this talent. Nor even the skill. I know what it does, I even use it sometimes, but Im never impressed with how much damage it actually removes from my opponents hits. It shows, but Im never impressed.

- Blood Craze. I had that one for a long while, back when I was fury. I ended up taking something else because I didnt like the numbers. 3% of, say 10k hp, is a mere 300 hp given back in 6 seconds. 300 hp nowadays isnt much. Its not even close to much. In tanking and with 490 def you will take no crits, so I would assume you put this in for the PvP aspect of the build. But how can 300 hp per 6 seconds be good? I mean even in a long fight I MIGHT get 1k hp from it if its always up due to crits. But if Im taking that many crits .. methinks I blew up and Im now in the spirit world watching the chunks of my carcass fall down from the sky.

Im not saying I think the build is bad. Im trying to understand certain choices in it.

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Anticipation --
I always pick this up because I generally want to max out my Stamina and Armor, not my Defense, when picking gear. I also want some Strength/Shield Block Value gear. I found that even with a pretty wide selection of gear, getting 490 Defense without Anticipation would give me very few options -- the trinkets, for instance, always had to be the figurine and dabiri's. Personally, I never try to go too far above 490, though I make exceptions to that rule for fast hitting bosses.

Improved Demo --
Bosses seem to have different Attack Power scaling than players ... by a lot. Imp Demo Shout has a very noticeable impact on the harder hitters like High King, Gruul, Nightbane, Malchezaar. This trend started in Naxxramas (Imp Demo was a godsend for MT'ing Patchwerk, Thaddius, and Sapphiron).

Well, it also has to do with getting having an excuse for not having Deflection when raid tanking. :-p

Blood Craze --
...isn't that hot. The problem is, neither is anything else at that tier. I use Commanding Shout in nearly every situation where I am heavily using Shield Slam, because Attack Power simply doesn't affect my Shield Slam value. So Imp Battle Shout isn't a great deal for me atm. This, of course, flies in the face of the last two guide write-ups I've made, but Shield Slams never used to be the bulk of our aggro, either.

I probably will drop Piercing Howl and Blood Craze for Battle Shout, though, even before next patch. I use Hamstring a whole lot more than Piercing Howl.

what do you think of Threat Cycles, as talked about by Lavina in the wow-eu forum Threat and Warrior Tanking Guide?
for a standard tank and spank, it looks like you'd basically use:

/castsequence reset=6 Shield Slam, Revenge, Sunder Armor, Sunder Armor
to build threat,
or
/castsequence reset=6 Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Devastate
to maintain it.

how and where would you place Shield Block in such a macro, to insure Revenge lights?

OMFG do you have a life it must have taken you 1 year to type all this crap WOW man this is lame i just wanted to know how to pvp better im new to WoW "noob" and a mage kiks my ass why? Am i just not a good player ,do i just suk?eithier way if someone as interested in this game as you seem to be, could explain to me how to beat a cloth wearing mage in a duel i would realy appreciate it.PLZ if you respond just leave out the technical .69% of this or 4>20 odds of that . i just need to know the best stance and abilities plz thx.im starting to think a warrior was a bad decision,i hope im wrong!!!!!!!

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Q u o t e:
what do you think of Threat Cycles, as talked about by Lavina in the wow-eu forum Threat and Warrior Tanking Guide?
for a standard tank and spank, it looks like you'd basically use:

/castsequence reset=6 Shield Slam, Revenge, Sunder Armor, Sunder Armor
to build threat,
or
/castsequence reset=6 Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Devastate
to maintain it.

how and where would you place Shield Block in such a macro, to insure Revenge lights?

---

I definitely agree with the concept of Threat Cycles, to the extent that means gaining your maximum potential Threat by using the right abilities in the right order.

You'll notice I don't use any castsequence macros. This isn't because I don't understand or like them, I'm just not willing to automate myself to that degree -- in 99% of tanking situations, there are so many different factors that you have to be doing different things than the standard this, then-this, then-this process. For instance, getting multiple resists on Demoralizing Shout calls for a Shield Slam but nothing else until Demo is applied; stance-switching to Thunderclap needs to be done every 20 seconds.

Server lag is also another reason not to confine yourself to the "I have to do this next" mentality. Abilities may conceptually be 1.5 sec on the Global Cooldown, but the reality is, the 4th Sunder Armor will more often than not slow down the use of your Shield Slam. In some cases to the degree that Shield Slam is simply more efficient. And heavens knows Revenge, on a 5.0 cooldown, never fits correctly into a pattern revolving around a 6-second cycle.

The concept is correct, though. Maximizing Threat through using the right abilities in the right order is critical; even moreso with the T4/T5 bonuses. Lavina's guide was an excellent read.

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Q u o t e:
2.0 Defensive Talent Builds

...
2.1.2 Instances/Grinding/PVP
This build is a bit better for handling solo-grinding and outdoor questing along with the instances. There is less mitigation but more utility and damage. Try to pick up Attack Power and Crit gear, as well as an Off-Hand weapon, for using Devastate. Cleave is included with the assumption that you will be using a slow Main-Hand weapon to maximize Devastate.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?000000000000000000000000551013001501200000001355511030000103501300#none

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This build looks like a copy/paste error from your PVP build, you mention devastate in it, but the build doesn't have devastate.

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Q u o t e:


2.2 Player-Verse-Environment Raiding
These are strictly raid-oriented builds. You will need the gear to support them.

2.2.1 Raiding
This build maximizes mitigation and steady aggro gain. If you are in a position where you are strictly raid tanking, this build is literally as good as it gets. I include Improved Shield Wall in this build for one reason -- when you use it, something usually has gone terribly wrong, and the extra 5 seconds can mean the difference between a kill and a wipe.
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/warrior/talents.html?350003000000000000000000000000000000000000000355511033002103531351

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I'm actually confused about your choice of improved thunderclap in this build. If you're raid MTing, are you using it for those AoE aggro situations? Even improved it is inferior threat per rage than pretty much any other ability you could use on a single target. I would think you could delegate the thunderclap (for debuff purposes, at least) to an OT or non-tank warrior. That being said I'm not sure where else to put the points. Mostly I'd just like to know your motivations, and how you, being a reknowned raid MT, use Thunderclap as such.

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Q u o t e:


This build looks like a copy/paste error from your PVP build, you mention devastate in it, but the build doesn't have devastate.

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It is, and that's an accident. Copying from the talent calculator is trick business.

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Q u o t e:
I'm actually confused about your choice of improved thunderclap in this build. If you're raid MTing, are you using it for those AoE aggro situations? Even improved it is inferior threat per rage than pretty much any other ability you could use on a single target. I would think you could delegate the thunderclap (for debuff purposes, at least) to an OT or non-tank warrior. That being said I'm not sure where else to put the points. Mostly I'd just like to know your motivations, and how you, being a reknowned raid MT, use Thunderclap as such.

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Alot of fights tend to have my off-tanks tied up these days. I do make sure to have the Thunderclap slowing debuff on the mob; a quick switch to Arms isn't always dangerous when you are at full health and Demo is up. Beyond that, yes, I would normally have an off-tank doing this.

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Q u o t e:
I do make sure to have the Thunderclap slowing debuff on the mob; a quick switch to Arms isn't always dangerous when you are at full health and Demo is up. Beyond that, yes, I would normally have an off-tank doing this.

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Soon to be much, much easier to do, with being able to use TC in Dstance coming in the patch. And the greater rage generation.
Have you tried the PTR?

Modified your Spell Reflection macro a tiny bit.

#show Spell Reflection
/cast [stance:2] Spell Reflection
/stopmacro [stance:2]
/cast [nostance:1]Battle Stance
/cast [stance:1] Spell Reflection
/cast [nostance:3]Berserker Stance

Casts Spell Reflection if you're already in Defensive Stance and then stops the macro. Then goes on to your normal cycle.

Really looking forward to the completed guide. Learned more about tanking from the old one than from any other source.

But I have a question that has been plagueing me as of late. How important is +Hit while tanking? Would you rather have 1% to hit or 1% to dodge? Trying to decide between two necks and this is what the decision hinges on.

Thanks for the help.

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Q u o t e:

7. The daze effect from Piercing Howl does not increase damage from Heroic Strike.

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This might have been true at the time of the original post. However, at this time, the dazed effect from Piercing Howl does indeed allow more damage from Heroic Strike 10. I have tested this myself and confirmed ~62 additional base damage with Piercing Howl. Please consider updating the original post, so as to not mislead anyone. Thanks.

Couple of questions that I have heard conflicting answers to:
I did my best to skim the thread for these so I hope they have not already been asked/answered

Does sunder armor apply less threat after the debuff is stacked 5 times?
If so, by how much?

if yes, would it be a good idea, from the perspective of threat generation alone, to intentionally let the debuff fade (assuming you dont have devestate) so that you can re-apply them at their max threat values?

thank you.

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Q u o t e:

This might have been true at the time of the original post. However, at this time, the dazed effect from Piercing Howl does indeed allow more damage from Heroic Strike 10. I have tested this myself and confirmed ~62 additional base damage with Piercing Howl. Please consider updating the original post, so as to not mislead anyone. Thanks.

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Updated. My testing on the Beta server showed this not to be the case but, as always, everything is subject to change. Thanks. :)

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Q u o t e:
Couple of questions that I have heard conflicting answers to:
I did my best to skim the thread for these so I hope they have not already been asked/answered

Does sunder armor apply less threat after the debuff is stacked 5 times?
If so, by how much?

if yes, would it be a good idea, from the perspective of threat generation alone, to intentionally let the debuff fade (assuming you dont have devestate) so that you can re-apply them at their max threat values?

thank you.

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Sunder Armor continues to apply the same Threat, and I updated that into the guide for clarification. :)

edit:nm

thanks for answering my prev. question. one of the references answered the one I was going to post here.