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Q u o t e:
tainted, check this link on the subject of armor http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=91629683&postId=915424084&sid=1

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Thanks for the link. This is my reply to that thread you link me. I think i might help here as well so i will post here too.

"To Cider

I dont know if anyone point this out to you yet but there's an error in your table. The LPS at 5000AC should be 14.7, not 10.4

To everyone else that may not fully understand the implication of this thread, what it means is that depending on your current Armor and HP, you can do some simple calculation to find whether increasing the equivalent value of HP is better than increasing AC.

For example, say a prot warrior currently at 13000HP and 13000AC, if given the choice, do u know if its better to increase 1000HP or is it better to increase 1000AC? Remember that in blizz's itemization, 10AC=1Stamina, so 1000HP(100stamina) would have the same value as 1000AC. So even though its hypothetical, its a fair question given that they are equal in item value.

You you can actually figure this out by some simple math and 1 equation.
Mitigation(against lvl 73 or raid boss) = (Armor)/(armor+11960)

Lets say you're tanking a boss that does 1000DPS unmitigated.

If you choose 1000AC...

then u have 14,000AC and 13,000HP
1000DPS reduce by 53.9% (use formula to find mitigation at 14000AC) = 460 DPS
13000HP divide by 460DPS = 28.26 seconds (your survival time)

If you choose 1000HP...

Then u have 13000AC and 14000HP
1000DPS reduce by 52.1% = 479 DPS
14000HP divide by 479DPS = 29.23 seconds (your survival time)

If you did not choose any

13000HP 13000AC
1000DPS reduce by 52.1% = 479 DPS
13000HP divide by 479 = 27.14 seconds (your survival time)

To put things in perspective, if you were wise enough to choose 1000HP, you would have increase your survival time by 3.5% more than had you chosen 1000AC and about 7.7% longer than if you had not upgrade anything.

These after just to help understand the relationship between gear and armor. There are certain point where raising armor is better, and certain point where raising Stamina is better. It is that way b/c of the nature of diminishing return on armor. WHen you put avoidnace into consideration, which is another major form of mitigation for tanks, it gets quite a bit more complicated and require better understanding. But we have to start somewhere and thsi is a good place to start.

Anyway lots of prop to Cider for all these post. Would have have been nice to discuss more stuff like these with you."

I just read this for the first time today, and it was a very good read.

I'd like to take exception to an ideological point on which I disgree. Cider asserts that the "main tank" is naturally the guild leader, and that it is beneficial to give the "main tank" the "first choice" on gear. My reaction to this is:

--I don't think there's much relation between raid role and guild leadership or raid leadership. Those jobs require some organizational skills, a knowledge of what the various classes can do, and knowledge of the encounters to be faced. Being a tank or "main tank" isn't required. And to use an analogy - similarly to the way most states in the USA don't have their capitals in the biggest cities, I think it's often best to refrain from giving someone who has such a prominent raid role as a "main tank" does the extra prominence of also being politically powerful (pardon the expression) within a guild. Checks and balances. I was in a guild on another toon where the main tank was not only not the guild leader - he was also not even the warrior class leader (we had class leaders). A fury warrior was the class leader - and he was extremely intelligent and effective at it.

--Regarding the "gear up the main tank" thing. It makes sense in certain contexts. But there's a big difference between "gearing up the main tank" and giving the main tank "first choice" on gear. For example, a guild in the past may have decided that it was in their best interest to see that their most frequent tank gets a lifegiving gem as soon as possible, and that probably makes a lot of sense for many guilds. But it certainly shouldn't be at the discretion of the tank player himself to take whatever he wants before others. There are guild goals, and their are also personal goals that every player has, and there should be some middle ground between them. Furthermore, there is a big difference between the two or three guilds on a server that are pushing content as fast as possible, and the other raiding guilds that, although perfectly competant and succesful, are not trying to push content at maximum speed at the expense of some other considerations. It doesn't make a lot of sense to say "guilds should gear up the main tank!" and have one guy in full Might while everyone else is still waiting to get upgrades they really want, unless it's the guild's mission to push content in an usually aggressive and single-minded way (and the majority of raiding players aren't part of a guild with this kind of mission).

I think what he's really trying to say is to be a great tank, you have to have the knowledge of a good raid leader. Thats why its natural that MT fit into the Raid Leader role. A great tank should take the initiative on his own to learn about new encounter and bosses. A tank has no room for error. A dps class might not know whats going and can just stand back and learn the situation while everyone else do their job, a healer if they dont know whats going on can still keep healing, but a tank has to know what he's tanking or its an instant wipe.

The difference between the MT and Raidleader is that the MT may not necessarily understand every strong and weakness point of all the class. A good raid leader also require good patience, sound logic, and good personal skill. SOmething a great MT may not necessarily have.

Was the possibility of devastate adding sunder threat researched? In other words, devastate produces 101 threat + 301 (sunder armor) threat with one use.

It seems off that 101 threat is produced by a 41 point talent even if it is instant with no cooldown.

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Q u o t e:
I think what he's really trying to say is to be a great tank, you have to have the knowledge of a good raid leader. Thats why its natural that MT fit into the Raid Leader role. A great tank should take the initiative on his own to learn about new encounter and bosses. A tank has no room for error. A dps class might not know whats going and can just stand back and learn the situation while everyone else do their job, a healer if they dont know whats going on can still keep healing, but a tank has to know what he's tanking or its an instant wipe.

The difference between the MT and Raidleader is that the MT may not necessarily understand every strong and weakness point of all the class. A good raid leader also require good patience, sound logic, and good personal skill. SOmething a great MT may not necessarily have.

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Agreed. To a smaller scale, what role does the tank have in a 5 man? Learning the fights, possibly the pulls.

If you tank, you better know what to do. This amounts to a certain amount of leadership.

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Q u o t e:
Was the possibility of devastate adding sunder threat researched? In other words, devastate produces 101 threat + 301 (sunder armor) threat with one use.

It seems off that 101 threat is produced by a 41 point talent even if it is instant with no cooldown.

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101 innate threat is correct - the rest comes from its damage.

sweetness

Great post, worthy of the sticky.
If anything perhaps one of the reserved ones can explain the differences between Warrior tanking and Druid / Paladin. Just the simple things since there are still Warriors who seriously claim that Bears outtank them in every way every time and do more damage and can heal.
Touchy subject and somthing that is hard to do objectivly I am sure.
Including differences in threatgeneration (lacerate, avengers shield, concecration, maul)
Differences in talents / skills / items / Oh crap buttons.
Why there are +FeralAP weapons (because weapondamage doesnt matter in bear / cat form. Same with proc enchants to weapons. Or procs on weapons.)

Oh and crushing blows (cannot be dodged, only blocked and we dont have that).

1.3 Guild Loyalty and Guild Gearing
As a Main Tank, your attitude towards your guild and your raid is not optional.

When is it ok to leave a guild as a geared main tank? It really isn't. If you are a member of a cohesive, mobile, forward-moving guild and are performing in a tanking position, you have no in-game "right" to this.



Well you better start talking now Cider, that is if you ever come back.

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Q u o t e:
1.3 Guild Loyalty and Guild Gearing
As a Main Tank, your attitude towards your guild and your raid is not optional.

When is it ok to leave a guild as a geared main tank? It really isn't. If you are a member of a cohesive, mobile, forward-moving guild and are performing in a tanking position, you have no in-game "right" to this.



Well you better start talking now Cider, that is if you ever come back.

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You bolded the wrong part of that:

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Q u o t e:
When is it ok to leave a guild as a geared main tank? It really isn't. If you are a member of a cohesive, mobile, forward-moving guild and are performing in a tanking position, you have no in-game "right" to this. Loot was not given to you as payment of services. You are an investment in the raid and guild progression. As such, most raiding endgame raiding guilds will simply not consider people who deserted a position of tanking in a prior guild. However, issues related to real life and necessary circumstance do come up -- this is only a game.

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http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=80452023&sid=1

He has other priorities in his life right now. In the context of what you are quoting, there really wasn't a better time for him to leave warcraft, because gear was equalized.

oh its ok that he quit, but what he did was wrong

How I wish that this guide was in a PDF format. It would make reading it when ever I want a lot easier.

Cinderhelm! I /salute you sir.

Thank you for the most increadible and indepth class information in the game.

My main is a hunter, and I've dabbled with a rogue, mage, shaman. My newest venture is this warrior, and I have to say I am having a blasty blast. This guide is one of the best guides I've come across, for any class. Most of the reason I've having so much fun is this guide has helped me tremendously. Granted I've barely scratched the surface of the class, but already I'm training myself for using skills around the GCD. Keep up the good work!

I don't know if its true or not, but i heard that he DKP ninjaed things for "guild progression". Until you prove me wrong thats what I believe.

lol skwrl, im not trying too, just wanna know what happened

You're not trying to make trouble but you say you're going to believe that he was ninjaing DKP for guild progression?

Right. >_>;

Well i can't believe there are rumors going on over a game. Kind of weird. But remember you don't know most of the people on World of Warcraft in person, so you shouldn't believe everything that everyone is saying, unless they have either proven that this ninjaing went on or they have proof.
So what if Ciderhelm did do the apparent "ninjaing dkp". But i'm sure that he didn't. I've been friends with Ciderhelm for a while and i know that he wouldn't do something like that.

Anyways, Ciderhelm, Goodluck, and i wish you the best.