that gonna be in the next big patch or is that coming out with the expansion as well?

Unless readily accessible new instances give even better loot than this, many players would completely ignore them. Raid instances along the way in leveling simply aren't viable, as raids cut experience by half. Further, the only reason guilds can get 40 players to go do Molten Core is because there are many, many 60s in the game, at least when compared to the number of players at exactly, say, level 37. The only sensible thing that I see to do with instances like Zul'Gurub, 20-man Ahn'Qiraj, and Molten Core is to heavily nerf the mobs to make the instances 5-man, raise their levels so that the loot the instance drops is suitable for the level without changing items, reduce drop rates, and remove the raid lockout. That would at least get some utility out of the instances, rather than Blizzard having spent all that time designing instances that even raiders who happen to pick up the game after the expansion can never see. Furthermore, the 40-man component is hardly the only problem with raids in their present formulation. If they were to make the end-game instances 5-man, but keep all the other problems, would that make for a fun instance? Raid lockouts, exotic resistance requirements, prescheduling, regrouping on multiple days, pigeonholed class functions, forced respecs, reputation grinds, DKP, guild drama, and killing the same mobs in the same orders using the same tactics week after week after week in a 5-man instance? No thanks. If that's what it takes, the mobs can keep their epics for all I care. If the problem with the existing raiding end-game is that it's a boring time sink, then what is gained by offering the alternative of another boring time sink? Should a 60 with 100 days /played who still has trouble with Ragefire Chasm get epics just because he's a 60 with 100 days /played? If you got a thousand characters to level 5, would you expect epics for that? Emphasizing time spent over skill leads to mind-numbingly repetitive content, which is exactly what should be avoided. Surely it is better to spend that time creating real content even if it means only one boring end game path instead of several. Perhaps for whatever the final expansion Blizzard has planned, it would make sense to have multiple end-game paths, so that players could advance to the very best gear via 40-man raids, 5-man groups, solo content, or whatever mix they prefer. But in the until then, it doesn't make sense to overdo the end-game content which will need a major overhaul later, instead of real content which will remain useful for as long as the game exists, and without needing to be completely rebalanced. Another alternative would be to have no end-game at all. Put no raid instances or reputation grinds into the game, so that once you finish Stratholme, Scholomance, Dire Maul, Blackrock Depths, and Blackrock Spire, you're done. There's nothing left to do. That would be like Blizzard telling players, congratulations, you have beaten the game. Now you should cancel your account and go do something else. For obvious business reasons, they can't do that. Let's not forget that Blizzard is playing a game too, here. They're trying to make as much money as they possibly can. This isn't an anti-capitalist rant; that's a good thing, not a bad thing. If Blizzard didn't care about money, they wouldn't care what players want, and certainly wouldn't adjust the game based on player demands. If you don't see the difference between this and what they do now, I suggest you go apply for some permit at a government agency sometime. It doesn't matter much which agency, so long as it isn't dependent on customer satisfaction for its budget. Indeed, Blizzard trying to make money is the reason they made the popular level 1-59 section of the game the way they did. Blizzards great insight was that, even if it was necessary for the game to be painful grinding once the content had run out, many players didnt want the painful grinding stage to begin somewhere around level 3. So they postponed it all the way until players had done nearly everything there was to do, and players loved it. That is a big reason why the game has six million or so subscribers, and the company has (hopefully) made millions of dollars in profit. But players see that the grinding can be postponed, and want it postponed further, or put off indefinitely. A company that found a way to do that in a stereotypical MMORPG with heavily scripted content would make oodles of money off it. But trying that is perhaps a holy grail type of mission, and one for which neither Blizzard nor anyone else on the planet has a solution. However, Blizzard knew that they could only add so much real content to the game, without making a bunch of ill-conceived garbage. The problem they faced was how to get players to keep subscribing after they have run out of content, or more commonly, skipped most of it. Their solution was the current raiding end-game. Look carefully, and you'll notice that that is exactly what the existing 40-man raids are built for, more so than to provide an interesting challenge. There is the raid lockout, for example, so that a guild can't kill Onyxia 5 times per day and get everyone his tier 2 helm in a week, but rather, the raid "content" lasts much longer, even after Onyxia goes on farm status. There are the specialized resistance gear requirements, so that players have to spend much time farming for gear which is useless outside the instance in question in order to do the raid. The 40-man requirement itself forces much time to be spent on organizing and trying to build guilds rather than raiding. And the most clever part of this is that if only so much time per week can be spent advancing a "main", it pushes players to create alts, to go back and redo content in a different way with a different class, or perhaps even go do content they skipped the first time around. That is, it pushes players to go do something fun. Imagine that. Doing the same thing over and over and over again for loot is not real content. Forty main raids simply aren't real content in the sense that, say, Scarlet Monastery or Hillsbrad Foothills are. If any raiders want to disagree with that, then would you seriously clear Molten Core a dozen times per character if it dropped no loot, epic or otherwise? Not coincidentally, the same can be said of the various reputation grinds in the game. After all, without epic rewards, players simply wouldn't do a very small subset of the content over and over and over again, even if it's the big bad end boss of the game, as it simply isn't fun. So what about the epics? Doesn't it seem odd that, with the exception of pvp rank 14 weapons (a time sink and a half in itself), all high level epics come from 40-man raids? Well, not really. Blizzard put the "end-game" raids into the game to provide something to do for their less creative players, and prefers that players go raiding rather than canceling accounts. Putting the best loot in the game there ensures that the appropriate type of players will spend the desired amount of time in such instances, and hence keep their subscriptions active. Ill concede that the loot gap between raid and non-raid gear is awfully large and perhaps unnecessarily so; surely item level 60 epics for tier 1 and 67ish for tier 2 would have been high enough to push the players who want the best gear to raid for it. But the point remains that the best gear has to come from the end-game pseudo-content that Blizzard creates solely in an effort to prevent players from cancelling when they rationally ought to. After all, most raiders are there for the epics, not for the challenge. Most won't say so, but many implicitly admit it when they argue that 40-man raids have to give drastically better loot than 5-man instances or else people wouldn't bother to do them. Suppose that there were a "tier 3" legendary set for each class in the game right now. The only way to get it is to press the "q" key once per second for eight hours straight. You can't macro it, and if you take a break for two seconds, you fail and have to start over. Would you do it? Surely you know as well as I do that a lot of players would. Furthermore, if Blizzard later created alternate methods to get comparable gear, there would be an outcry from the people who already had the legendary set of how this was unfair, and the other people who wanted legendaries should have to "earn" their gear by severely damaging their wrists. And yet, at risk of some of the more outspoken raiders not understanding this example, I should hope that it isn't necessary to explain why such a set is spectacularly bad game design. And really, the concept of "earning" gear is quite a preposterous one. You "earn" things by doing something you don't want to do, in order to get something you want. If you aren't fortunate enough to have a job you love, then your job may still be worth doing in order to get enough money to buy an online game subscription--and not starve. For things that need to be done, such exchanges to make doing work worthwhile are quite useful. But this is an online game, played for entertainment. If there are people starving in the world, it's not because your guild took too long to get enough fire resistance gear to take down Ragnaros. Computer games are supposed to be fun. The content along the way, and in particular, the means by which gear is obtained, ought to be fun in itself. To make yourself miserable in order to get epics in a game that you fundamentally hate cannot be "worth it" in any sane sense. It is a rather maddening human tendency that people want epics, regardless of the means by which they are obtained. Raiders often accuse non-raiders of wanting easy epics. Usually they're right. It actually goes further than this, as what many players want is not merely easy epics for themselves, but also for other players to not get easy epics. But raiders want easy epics, too. So I'm not a raider and I

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Q u o t e:
It will be released prior to the expansion, but we don't have a patch number for it yet.

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sweet.

/want bear mount

O.O

HOLY WALL OF TEXT

Zul Aman is definitely coming out in one of the next patches. My understanding is that bliz also wants to release another 25 man raid and possibly a 5 man before the expansion.

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Q u o t e:
It will be released prior to the expansion, but we don't have a patch number for it yet.

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Stated patch number at blizzcon was 2.3

WOW THAT WALL OF TEXT IS NOT TUNED FOR THIS INSTANCE

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Q u o t e:
WOW THAT WALL OF TEXT IS NOT TUNED FOR THIS INSTANCE

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Q u o t e:
O.O

HOLY WALL OF TEXT

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it is delicious copypasta. You must try some.

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Q u o t e:


Not in patch 2.2 but prior to the expansion. There's even something planned for after that too.

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Nice, is the buff for Enhancement (Shamans) coming that patch? :D

btw, that wall of text is old.

Something else planned? What like nerfing Warriors into the ground as they should be?

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Q u o t e:
Not in patch 2.2 but prior to the expansion. There's even something planned for after that too.

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So... 2.3 then, but that'll be a while because of in game vent.

<3

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Q u o t e:


Not in patch 2.2 but prior to the expansion. There's even something planned for after that too.

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a little bird told me it had to do with the sunwell... =O

[quote]Unless readily accessible new instances give even better loot than this, many players would completely ignore them. Raid instances along the way in leveling simply aren't viable, as raids cut experience by half. Further, the only reason guilds can get 40 players to go do Molten Core is because there are many, many 60s in the game, at least when compared to the number of players at exactly, say, level 37. The only sensible thing that I see to do with instances like Zul'Gurub, 20-man Ahn'Qiraj, and Molten Core is to heavily nerf the mobs to make the instances 5-man, raise their levels so that the loot the instance drops is suitable for the level without changing items, reduce drop rates, and remove the raid lockout. That would at least get some utility out of the instances, rather than Blizzard having spent all that time designing instances that even raiders who happen to pick up the game after the expansion can never see. Furthermore, the 40-man component is hardly the only problem with raids in their present formulation. If they were to make the end-game instances 5-man, but keep all the other problems, would that make for a fun instance? Raid lockouts, exotic resistance requirements, prescheduling, regrouping on multiple days, pigeonholed class functions, forced respecs, reputation grinds, DKP, guild drama, and killing the same mobs in the same orders using the same tactics week after week after week in a 5-man instance? No thanks. If that's what it takes, the mobs can keep their epics for all I care. If the problem with the existing raiding end-game is that it's a boring time sink, then what is gained by offering the alternative of another boring time sink? Should a 60 with 100 days /played who still has trouble with Ragefire Chasm get epics just because he's a 60 with 100 days /played? If you got a thousand characters to level 5, would you expect epics for that? Emphasizing time spent over skill leads to mind-numbingly repetitive content, which is exactly what should be avoided. Surely it is better to spend that time creating real content even if it means only one boring end game path instead of several. Perhaps for whatever the final expansion Blizzard has planned, it would make sense to have multiple end-game paths, so that players could advance to the very best gear via 40-man raids, 5-man groups, solo content, or whatever mix they prefer. But in the until then, it doesn't make sense to overdo the end-game content which will need a major overhaul later, instead of real content which will remain useful for as long as the game exists, and without needing to be completely rebalanced. Another alternative would be to have no end-game at all. Put no raid instances or reputation grinds into the game, so that once you finish Stratholme, Scholomance, Dire Maul, Blackrock Depths, and Blackrock Spire, you're done. There's nothing left to do. That would be like Blizzard telling players, congratulations, you have beaten the game. Now you should cancel your account and go do something else. For obvious business reasons, they can't do that. Let's not forget that Blizzard is playing a game too, here. They're trying to make as much money as they possibly can. This isn't an anti-capitalist rant; that's a good thing, not a bad thing. If Blizzard didn't care about money, they wouldn't care what players want, and certainly wouldn't adjust the game based on player demands. If you don't see the difference between this and what they do now, I suggest you go apply for some permit at a government agency sometime. It doesn't matter much which agency, so long as it isn't dependent on customer satisfaction for its budget. Indeed, Blizzard trying to make money is the reason they made the popular level 1-59 section of the game the way they did. Blizzards great insight was that, even if it was necessary for the game to be painful grinding once the content had run out, many players didnt want the painful grinding stage to begin somewhere around level 3. So they postponed it all the way until players had done nearly everything there was to do, and players loved it. That is a big reason why the game has six million or so subscribers, and the company has (hopefully) made millions of dollars in profit. But players see that the grinding can be postponed, and want it postponed further, or put off indefinitely. A company that found a way to do that in a stereotypical MMORPG with heavily scripted content would make oodles of money off it. But trying that is perhaps a holy grail type of mission, and one for which neither Blizzard nor anyone else on the planet has a solution. However, Blizzard knew that they could only add so much real content to the game, without making a bunch of ill-conceived garbage. The problem they faced was how to get players to keep subscribing after they have run out of content, or more commonly, skipped most of it. Their solution was the current raiding end-game. Look carefully, and you'll notice that that is exactly what the existing 40-man raids are built for, more so than to provide an interesting challenge. There is the raid lockout, for example, so that a guild can't kill Onyxia 5 times per day and get everyone his tier 2 helm in a week, but rather, the raid "content" lasts much longer, even after Onyxia goes on farm status. There are the specialized resistance gear requirements, so that players have to spend much time farming for gear which is useless outside the instance in question in order to do the raid. The 40-man requirement itself forces much time to be spent on organizing and trying to build guilds rather than raiding. And the most clever part of this is that if only so much time per week can be spent advancing a "main", it pushes players to create alts, to go back and redo content in a different way with a different class, or perhaps even go do content they skipped the first time around. That is, it pushes players to go do something fun. Imagine that. Doing the same thing over and over and over again for loot is not real content. Forty main raids simply aren't real content in the sense that, say, Scarlet Monastery or Hillsbrad Foothills are. If any raiders want to disagree with that, then would you seriously clear Molten Core a dozen times per character if it dropped no loot, epic or otherwise? Not coincidentally, the same can be said of the various reputation grinds in the game. After all, without epic rewards, players simply wouldn't do a very small subset of the content over and over and over again, even if it's the big bad end boss of the game, as it simply isn't fun. So what about the epics? Doesn't it seem odd that, with the exception of pvp rank 14 weapons (a time sink and a half in itself), all high level epics come from 40-man raids? Well, not really. Blizzard put the "end-game" raids into the game to provide something to do for their less creative players, and prefers that players go raiding rather than canceling accounts. Putting the best loot in the game there ensures that the appropriate type of players will spend the desired amount of time in such instances, and hence keep their subscriptions active. Ill concede that the loot gap between raid and non-raid gear is awfully large and perhaps unnecessarily so; surely item level 60 epics for tier 1 and 67ish for tier 2 would have been high enough to push the players who want the best gear to raid for it. But the point remains that the best gear has to come from the end-game pseudo-content that Blizzard creates solely in an effort to prevent players from cancelling when they rationally ought to. After all, most raiders are there for the epics, not for the challenge. Most won't say so, but many implicitly admit it when they argue that 40-man raids have to give drastically better loot than 5-man instances or else people wouldn't bother to do them. Suppose that there were a "tier 3" legendary set for each class in the game right now. The only way to get it is to press the "q" key once per second for eight hours straight. You can't macro it, and if you take a break for two seconds, you fail and have to start over. Would you do it? Surely you know as well as I do that a lot of players would. Furthermore, if Blizzard later created alternate methods to get comparable gear, there would be an outcry from the people who already had the legendary set of how this was unfair, and the other people who wanted legendaries should have to "earn" their gear by severely damaging their wrists. And yet, at risk of some of the more outspoken raiders not understanding this example, I should hope that it isn't necessary to explain why such a set is spectacularly bad game design. And really, the concept of "earning" gear is quite a preposterous one. You "earn" things by doing something you don't want to do, in order to get something you want. If you aren't fortunate enough to have a job you love, then your job may still be worth doing in order to get enough money to buy an online game subscription--and not starve. For things that need to be done, such exchanges to make doing work worthwhile are quite useful. But this is an online game, played for entertainment. If there are people starving in the world, it's not because your guild took too long to get enough fire resistance gear to take down Ragnaros. Computer games are supposed to be fun. The content along the way, and in particular, the means by which gear is obtained, ought to be fun in itself. To make yourself miserable in order to get epics in a game that you fundamentally hate cannot be "worth it" in any sane sense. It is a rather maddening human tendency that people want epics, regardless of the means by which they are obtained. Raiders often accuse non-raiders of wanting easy epics. Usually they're right. It actually goes further than this, as what many players want is not merely easy epics for themselves, but also for other players to not get easy epics. But raiders want easy epics, too. So I'm not a raide