Managed to drag a guildie into some quick testing (thanks Hyria =) to try and get the new threat values for Maul, and verify what happened to Swipe.

Someone else probably should do something slightly more in depth, I ran out of time to get in more tests, but they seemed to match up. (stupid work -_-)

And check my math, I hope it's right...


If the Maul threat formula is following Heroic Strike, it's (damage + innate threat) * bear mod. Fully talented, the bear mod is 1.45.

To pull aggro, you need to do 1.1* that threat in melee, or 1.3* that threat at range.

To get the innate threat, everything else known, is damage required / (range mod * bear mod) - damage done.


First test:
maul hit for 292
wand damage to pull aggro at melee range was 814
new threat after the path = 814 / (1.1 * 1.45) - 292 = 218.34
threat required to pull aggro at melee ranged pre-path = 292 * 1.45 * 1.75 * 1.1 = 815

Second test:
maul hit for 291
wand damage at melee range was 810
threat after = 216.84
threat required to pull aggro at melee ranged before = 812

Third test:
maul hit for 298
wand damage at *range* was 957
threat now = 209.69
threat required to pull aggro at ranged before = 983


Ideally, there should be some more tests to get a better average (I was getting slower on the pausing of the damage meter there - antivirus started jerking everything around), but it looks to be about 210-215ish innate threat from maul now... but, when I get the maths right, that looks to be about the same as it was pre-patch, for me - discounting the extra threat from crits which is no longer there.

People with higher attack power though, are going to see a reduction.


Just did a quick check of swipe as well...

Swipe test:
swipe hit for 80, normal hit for 151
wand damage at range was 455
extra threat now ~10

A few more tests would probably put that closer to 0 - I'm pretty sure an extra few wand hits got in then.


Edit: Fixed up some maths, changed the maul conclusion :D

Nice. Thanks for the numbers.

So... it's a pretty bad nerf?

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Q u o t e:
So... it's a pretty bad nerf?

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Given that it used to be 750 bonus threat from a 1000 point maul crit, yea its a massive nerf.

Ok, I just wanna say that I think your numbers are a bit off and wrong. First of all, you don't use a wand because it messes things up. You have someone PUNCH (ie. no weapons). Here are 2 of my tests (out of the bunch I did):

Maul for 429 damage:
429 * 1.45 = 622 Threat
1406-1436 damage pulled aggro (used a Rogue)
1421 * .8 = 1136.8 threat caused by rogue
1136.8 * .9 = 1023.12 Threat generated by me!
1023.12 - 622 = ~400 Static Threat

Maul Damage for 423
423 * 1.45 = 613 Threat
1403-1433 damage pulled aggro (Rogue again)
1418 * .8 = 1134.4 Threat caused by Rogue
1134.4 * .9 = 1020.96 Threat generated by me
1020.96 - 423 = ~400 Static Threat


That means that the static bonus on maul is about 400 threat, which is pretty good! In fact, its really only a nerf on crit mauls because:
Lets say a 450 Maul in the old system:
450 * 1.45 * 1.75 = 1141.875 Threat
450 maul in the new system:
450 * 1.45 + 400 = 1052.5 Threat

A very small nerf overall to druids at 60. Now, looking at it from another perspective, many people haven't thought this through. Static bonus threat means we'll be better resistance fight tankers than we previously were because we had to give up so much AP and crit to keep the require mitigation. This actually HELPS us for some fights!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe they changed all threat modifiers to be multiplicative, meaning that a talented bear druid would have a 1.495 multiplier, not 1.45.

1.3 * 1.15 = 1.495.

Okay, but as the Maul hits get bigger the nerf to threat becomes more apparent.

1000 damage Maul now generates the following threat: (1000 * 1.45) + 400 = 1850
1000 damage Maul used to generate the following threat: (1000 * 1.45) * 1.75 = 2538

...and therein lies the rub.

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Q u o t e:
450 maul in the new system:
450 * 1.45 + 400 = 1052.5 Threat

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Correct me if I am wrong, but they changed Maul to work similar to Heroic Strike. Heroic Strike is (DMG + Static Threat) * Threat Modifier, not DMG * Threat Modifier + Static Threat. *shrug*

Crits on maul is where the big nerf is coming in. Plus who knows how bad of a nerf this is to a level 70, which I would really be interested in seeing.

The fact that swipe no longer generates aggro means we no longer have a rage dump before level 66, which means we are taking a huge hit to our tanking ability.

Currently a warrior can Shield bash > Heroic strike > sunder, etc... to hold aggro. We now have the equivalent of heroic strike and nothing more until 66. This doesnt worry any of you? Or do you only care about druids at 70?

Did some math for myself, I've NO idea how correct it is... Seems about right, though. I did a few tests with my tree form friend smacking mobs with no weapon. I've yet to spend ANY talent points.
(DMG + X) * 1.3 * 1.1 = Aggro pulled


Maul hit for 313. Aggro was pulled at 706 damage after many white damage hits of 16. Did some maths, and found the number to be 180.
(313 + 180) * 1.3 * 1.1 = 704.99


Pulled another bear. Maul hit for 305. My tree friend pulled aggro at 694 damage.
(305 + 180) * 1.3 * 1.1 = 693.55


Pulled a third bear. Maul hit for 297. Aggro was pulled at 693.
(297 + 180) * 1.3 * 1.1 = 682.11



If anyone good with math could confirm/deny X = 180 or my formula for pulling aggro I'd love them forever. ^^

I'll back this up. My rough math suggests that Maul's threat component is approximately 200 (before the Feral Instinct and Bear Form multipliers).

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Q u o t e:

1421 * .8 = 1136.8 threat caused by rogue

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Rogues have a -29% threat modifier, not 20%, so it's worse than that.

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Q u o t e:
Did some math for myself, I've NO idea how correct it is... Seems about right, though. I did a few tests with my tree form friend smacking mobs with no weapon. I've yet to spend ANY talent points.
(DMG + X) * 1.3 * 1.1 = Aggro pulled


Maul hit for 313. Aggro was pulled at 706 damage after many white damage hits of 16. Did some maths, and found the number to be 180.
(313 + 180) * 1.3 * 1.1 = 704.99


Pulled another bear. Maul hit for 305. My tree friend pulled aggro at 694 damage.
(305 + 180) * 1.3 * 1.1 = 693.55


Pulled a third bear. Maul hit for 297. Aggro was pulled at 693.
(297 + 180) * 1.3 * 1.1 = 682.11



If anyone good with math could confirm/deny X = 180 or my formula for pulling aggro I'd love them forever. ^^

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From your test, if every white damage is 16, the bonus should be
between 176.4 and 180.7

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Q u o t e:
Maul for 429 damage:
429 * 1.45 = 622 Threat
1406-1436 damage pulled aggro (used a Rogue)
1421 * .8 = 1136.8 threat caused by rogue
1136.8 * .9 = 1023.12 Threat generated by me!
1023.12 - 622 = ~400 Static Threat

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Please note that your threat multiplier is 1.3*1.15 = 1.495; a rogue's threat multiplier is .71, not .8 (same as cat form, and changed to that in the last 1.x patch).

That would put the innate threat of Maul at around 180-190 before using the bearform multiplier, or just slightly higher than Heroic Strike.

Sorry. :(

I was the one that helped Koivie with that test and yes most of my white hits were 16 damage. There was also a small amount of 32 crits and rarely any white hits for 17 damage. The final hit for each test was all 16 damage.

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Q u o t e:


Please note that your threat multiplier is 1.3*1.15 = 1.495; a rogue's threat multiplier is .71, not .8 (same as cat form, and changed to that in the last 1.x patch).

That would put the innate threat of Maul at around 180-190 before using the bearform multiplier, or just slightly higher than Heroic Strike.

Sorry. :(

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ah ok. That makes a lot more sense! =D

Although it is kind of a bummer, mostly because we can't make our weapon faster whereas warriors can. So the "Same threat per second as heroic strike" is a misnomer, because it is much worse than a warrior using a 1.3 speed dagger =D

An interesting thing is from OP's post, the bonus should be no larger than 210,
and from Kiovie's testing, the bonus is close to 180.
205/180 = 16%.

I can't test what's the exact thing that cause this. Because OP is not telling us what's the damage per hit for wanding. Kiovie's tests are more accurate since the DPH was limited to 16.

who has the threat value for HS at level 60 and the one before level 60?
wowwiki is just down, I can't check the number there.

(DMG + 145) * Threat Multiplier for the level 60 Heroic Strike according to an old post by Earnur.

BTW, when you post test numbers for threat generation, you should post two numbers for each test. First number is the highest damage done to the mob before pulling aggro, second number is the lowest damage done to the mob before pulling aggro. This will establish a margin of error and a window with a lower limit and an upper limit, over multiple tests the window will get smaller and smaller until we get the correct value.

Using Selae's numbers that give only the upper limit, we get:
814 / 1.1 / 1.3 / 1.15 - 292 = ? - 202
810 / 1.1 / 1.3 / 1.15 - 291 = ? - 201
983 / 1.3 / 1.3 / 1.15 - 298 = ? - 207

So we have established an upper limit of 201 with Selae's numbers.

Alterreality did provide lower/upper numbers.
1406 * .71 / 1.1 / 1.3 / 1.15 - 429 = 179 - ?
1436 * .71 / 1.1 / 1.3 / 1.15 - 429 = ? - 190
1403 * .71 / 1.1 / 1.3 / 1.15 - 423 = 183 - ?
1433 * .71 / 1.1 / 1.3 / 1.15 - 423 = ? - 195

From Alterreality's numbers we have a window 183 - 190

Koivoe provided upper numbers, but we can work out lower numbers on the assumption every hit was 16 damage

690 / 1.1 / 1.3 - 313 = 170 - ?
706 / 1.1 / 1.3 - 313 = ? - 180
678 / 1.1 / 1.3 - 305 = 170 - ?
694 / 1.1 / 1.3 - 305 = ? - 180
677 / 1.1 / 1.3 - 297 = 177 - ?
693 / 1.1 / 1.3 - 297 = ? - 187

So Koivoe established a window of 177 - 180


Koivoe and Alterreality's windows don't intercept, so something probably isn't for one of the two of them. I'm more inclined to take Koivoe's numbers, since they are the simplest with the least coefficients that affect. We aren't totally sure that rogues aggro is 0.71*