I typed this up for my guild forums and I figured I'd post it here just incase anyone needed this info.



So, with the advent of 2.4 and the change to Imp Backstab (changed to Puncturing Wounds and now adds +15% crit chance to mute as well as 30% chance to crit with backstab) mutilate is now a viable alternative to combat swords for end game raiding. This does not by any means mean it will be out DPSing combat swords. What it means is that the difference between combat swords and Mutilate should be fairly small and can be overcome with personal skill/practice.

Now, mutilate is a different type of raiding from combat swords. A rogue can be "asleep at the wheel" and still maintain a good cycle as combat swords. This is not the case with a mutilate build. While specced mutilate a rogue will have to be on his game the entire time watching DP/Rupture/SnD counters, combo points, managing energy pools, and above all staying behind the target 100% of the time (this is easier said than done, for example... Hyjal trash on Rage). With that in mind, let's begin to lay out how to raid as a mutilate rogue.

First and foremost is the spec:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=f0efoeroizVoGcV0bV

Now, there are a few things in this spec that could/will be changed.

First is the 5 poison talent points. These will be alternated depending on what speed your offhand dagger is. Slower daggers benefit more from Imp Poisons than fast daggers, which will benefit more from more points in Vile Poisons.

The math behind this is as follows: (Originally posted by Left on the Elitist Jerks forums, Mutilate Raid Discussion)

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Q u o t e:
Assumptions

* 5.5% miss rate (running at ~275 hit rating)
* 6.0% dodge rate (running at ~10 expertise rating)
* SnD up at all times
* No other passive or active haste effects running
* On average, Mutilate attacks are spaced ~6.5 seconds apart


Method
Ran the simulator linked above for 1 test each at 100 days continuous DPS time, got the reported average number of stacks and damage per second, and posted those values here.

Results
Listing deadly poison simulated average stacks and DPS

1.8 speed weapon

* 5/5 Vile, 0/5 Improved -> 3.86 stacks, 69.47 DPS
* 4/5 Vile, 1/5 Improved -> 4.03 stacks, 70.18 DPS
* 3/5 Vile, 2/5 Improved -> 4.19 stacks, 70.39 DPS
* 2/5 Vile, 3/5 Improved -> 4.32 stacks, 69.99 DPS
* 1/5 Vile, 4/5 Improved -> 4.44 stacks, 69.22 DPS
* 0/5 Vile, 5/5 Improved -> 4.53 stacks, 67.96 DPS


1.5 speed weapon

* 5/5 Vile, 0/5 Improved -> 4.20 stacks, 75.63 DPS
* 4/5 Vile, 1/5 Improved -> 4.34 stacks, 75.54 DPS
* 3/5 Vile, 2/5 Improved -> 4.47 stacks, 75.10 DPS
* 2/5 Vile, 3/5 Improved -> 4.57 stacks, 74.03 DPS
* 1/5 Vile, 4/5 Improved -> 4.65 stacks, 72.60 DPS
* 0/5 Vile, 5/5 Improved -> 4.72 stacks, 70.80 DPS


1.4 speed weapon

* 5/5 Vile, 0/5 Improved -> 4.31 stacks, 77.61 DPS
* 4/5 Vile, 1/5 Improved -> 4.44 stacks, 77.27 DPS
* 3/5 Vile, 2/5 Improved -> 4.55 stacks, 76.40 DPS
* 2/5 Vile, 3/5 Improved -> 4.64 stacks, 75.20 DPS
* 1/5 Vile, 4/5 Improved -> 4.71 stacks, 73.54 DPS
* 0/5 Vile, 5/5 Improved -> 4.78 stacks, 71.64 DPS

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As you can see, the faster the dagger the more it benefits from Vile Poisons. Keep in mind your offhand dagger speed while speccing.

The second thing that could alternate from the above spec is the top tier of the combat tree. I personally prefer Imp Gouge and Imp SS for the rare situations where they become useful. For example, killing your Inner Demons on the Leo fight in SSC. The top tier of the combat tree is however, not that important. Distribute the points as you see fit.

Next comes to the combat rotations for a mutilate raider. The mutilate combat rotation is not the rigid 3s/5r of a combat swords spec but rather rather is a system with wiggle room and alot of "If A is true then B, if A is false then C". What you are attempting to do is keep Slice and Dice and Rupture up as close to 100% of the time while chaining finishers to keep your Find Weakness buff up as well for all of your yellow damage. What you will attempt to do is a:

4-5cp Snd --> 4-5 cp Rupture --> 4-5cp Evis (if both SnD and Rupture are up and have time, if not pool energy and then renew them)

Now, do not be confused by the "4-5cp" part of that combat rotation. It's really very simple. Often Ruthlessness will proc and then you will get a mute crit resulting in 4cp from your Seal Fate proc. It is not worth the energy you would spend to mute, shiv, or SS to gain that 5th combo point. What you do instead is use your finisher with 4cp instead of 5. An easy way to think about it is this.

If 0cp --> Mutex2
If 1cp --> Mute
If 2cp --> Mute
If 3cp --> Mute
If 4cp --> Finisher
If 5cp --> Finisher

Also, when you are about to do your SnD finisher, wait. If you are low on energy just before the SnD finisher is the time to wait and allow your energy to pool so that once you hit SnD you have enough energy to burst during the Find Weakness buff (IE, you hit SnD, get a relentless proc, mute twice, finisher and and continue the chain). This can be done to some degree before the rupture finisher as well however, rupture must be cast before the Find Weakness buff fades as to get the benefit of it. Keep in mind, Find Weakness enhances all yellow damage by 10%. This includes the entire duration of a Rupture cast while Find Weakness is up even if Find Weakness fades while the Rupture is ticking.

Now that we've covered finishers we can now explain why Mute is so strong. Mutilate chains finishers, easily. Often what you will end up doing will be Finisher --> Ruthlessness proc ---> Mute --> Finisher --> Ruthlessness proc --> Mute ---> Finisher ect. What does this mean? Massive energy returns from Relentless strikes. 4cp finishers have an 80% chance to return 25 energy, 5cp finishers 100% chance. With long finisher chains (which are common) you will be getting energy return after energy return from Finisher chaining. Relentless Strikes is your new Combat Potency. This one talent keeps Mute from being overly energy starved and allows mutilate to put out simply disgusting burst damage.

Geming for mutilate is different from combat as well. Due to combat potency not being in the spec +hit loses some of it's value in a mutilate build. We now get our energy returns from Relentless Strikes, which is assisted by mutilate criting. Hence +agil and +crit now become much more valuable. Hence, as a mutilate spec rogue, in your red sockets you would be socketing +8 agil (and upgraded versions as they become available), in your yellow sockets +4hit +4agil and in your blues +4agil +6 stam (although only 2 of these to activate your meta). The amount of +hit mutilate builds need will be obtained easily simply by taking gear upgrades as almost all rogue gear has more than substantial +hit on it.

Weapon Expertise is another stat that gains a small bit of value for a mutilate build. Without Surprise Attacks our finishers can now be dodged. Hence, capping weapon expertise becomes much more valuable. The Expertise cap for a mutilate build is 103. Quick Recovery helps to make up for dodged finishers (returning 80% of the energy speant) but the 20% energy that is lost from a dodged finisher still hurts, so weapon expertise maintains it's spot as the most valuable stat to rogues.

Enchants are largely the same for a mutilate build with one exception. You do not need to get Cat's Swiftness to boots (thank god). With Fleet Footed you are officially faster than anyone with a minor runspeed chant (Minor run speed is 8%, Fleet Footed 15%) and the effects do not stack. Instead get Enchant Boots - Greater Agility (+12 Agil) which is much less costly than Cat's Swiftness.

Now then, the one thing that people seem to be universally confused about is dagger speed. Drill this into your head:

Given equal stats and DPS the slower dagger is better. However, if a faster dagger has higher DPS and more desireable stats, use it. The difference in mutilate damage from 1.8 to 1.5 speed daggers is negligible and not worth thinking about.

For example. The Tracker's Blade is better than the Heartrazor for an offhand weapon due to it's DPS and stats being superior. Slower daggers have harder hitting mutes and better offhand enchant proc rates where as faster daggers have better chance to proc poisons (and hence allow you to put more points into Vile Poisons, increasing the dps from your poisons).

As far as what poisons to use, it stays the same. Instant Poison Mainhand and Deadly Poison Offhand. If a shaman is present, take the instant poison off your MH to recieve Windfury (which is still better than GoA for mute rogues).

I hope this helps anyone thinking about this spec out and if I missed anything feel free to ask.

I'm not gonna burst your bubble sir...
But I got rapped being Mutilate on Brutallus last night. Atleast 300dps difference between Mutilate and Combat swords. Seken and I swapped back to combat swords after a number of tries and the difference is significant. In a standard, tank and spank fight where you hardly move and you are not CC'd buffed/debuffed from the boss or adds, mutilate just paled in comparison.

I bumped the thread from yesterday, but it go no replies.

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Q u o t e:
I'm not gonna burst your bubble sir...
But I got rapped being Mutilate on Brutallus last night. Atleast 300dps difference between Mutilate and Combat swords. Seken and I swapped back to combat swords after a number of tries and the difference is significant. In a standard, tank and spank fight where you hardly move and you are not CC'd buffed/debuffed from the boss or adds, mutilate just paled in comparison.

I bumped the thread from yesterday, but it go no replies.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but last night was your first night raiding as mute since 2.4 right?

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Q u o t e:

Correct me if I'm wrong but last night was your first night raiding as mute since 2.4 right?

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No, I was mutilate Tuesday and Wednesday night as well on Kalecgos. I've also been mut before, so I am familiar with the mechanics.

I had a great cycle going: 3-4pts, pool energy, SnD, 4+ pts, rupture while still buffed with weakness.
If I got some really lucky crits, and procs I managed to squeeze and evis into the cycle, but it was rare. I was more worried with getting rupture and all my mut's in under the buff.

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Q u o t e:


No, I was mutilate Tuesday and Wednesday night as well on Kalecgos. I've also been mut before, so I am familiar with the mechanics.

I had a great cycle going: 3-4pts, pool energy, SnD, 4+ pts, rupture while still buffed with weakness.
If I got some really lucky crits, and procs I managed to squeeze and evis into the cycle, but it was rare. I was more worried with getting rupture and all my mut's in under the buff.

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Hmmm that's odd... last night in Kara (badge farming, woo 2 hourish kara clears ftw) I was doing the 4-5cp cycle and ended up going SnD --> Rupture --> Evis --> Evis --> SnD more often than I would have thought on the boss fights.

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Q u o t e:

Hmmm that's odd... last night in Kara (badge farming, woo 2 hourish kara clears ftw) I was doing the 4-5cp cycle and ended up going SnD --> Rupture --> Evis --> Evis --> SnD more often than I would have thought on the boss fights.

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T4 2pc

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Q u o t e:


T4 2pc

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That'd do it I suppose. Though I'd think the T5 4pc making your finisher free (hence making the inevitable 25 energy gain a 100% gain) or the Ashtongue Talisman would allow for the same sort of results.

Edit: Edited for clarity

would you say mut is superior to combat dags?

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Q u o t e:
would you say mut is superior to combat dags?

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I would say so yes. Combat daggers is really quite weak to be honest.

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Q u o t e:

Hmmm that's odd... last night in Kara (badge farming, woo 2 hourish kara clears ftw) I was doing the 4-5cp cycle and ended up going SnD --> Rupture --> Evis --> Evis --> SnD more often than I would have thought on the boss fights.

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Here is the full report.
http://wowwebstats.com/1bgtmqt3r53em?m

Try 7 is the best we did with Mutilate. We weren't using drums of battle, but we were flasked.
Try 8 is with combat swords and use of drums.
80 haste will not give you 300dps

Also, if you look at try 7, I got 2 eviscerates in and the fight was atleast 3 mins log at that point.

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Q u o t e:


I think you were just geared wrong, or unlucky.

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Hmm, 4/5 t6, shard of azzinoth and boundless agony. I also have ashtongue talisman trinket.
I used the best gear I had available that would give me the most agi/crit/AP possible.

I used 2 spreadsheets to tweak the best combination.

If you look at the WWS I posted, I wasn't unlucky...mutilate sucked.

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Q u o t e:


In a raid situation, what is the point of this then sir?

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Finish the quote.

"This does not by any means mean it will be out DPSing combat swords. What it means is that the difference between combat swords and Mutilate should be fairly small and can be overcome with personal skill/practice."

It should lag behind combat swords, slightly. The WWS I've looked at since 2.4 with equal geared rogues (one mute one Cswords) competing showed a DPS difference that was small. Sometimes the mute rogue was ontop, sometimes the combat rogue was. This is where personal skill and experience with the spec will come into play.

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Q u o t e:

That'd do it I suppose. Though I'd think the T5 4pc making your finisher free (hence making the inevitable 25 energy gain a 100% gain) or the Ashtongue Talisman would allow for the same sort of results.

Edit: Edited for clarity

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It's around 7% crit uptime. With full raid buffs going, GoA, mongoose procs I see damn near 50% crit. It still doesn't really matter since energy ticks are set and SnD is a set time frame.

I would let my energy pool to 80+ and wait for SnD to drop low than use evis.

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Q u o t e:


Here is the full report.
http://wowwebstats.com/1bgtmqt3r53em?m

Try 7 is the best we did with Mutilate. We weren't using drums of battle, but we were flasked.
Try 8 is with combat swords and use of drums.
80 haste will not give you 300dps

Also, if you look at try 7, I got 2 eviscerates in and the fight was atleast 3 mins log at that point.

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You were running a 2-3 SnD 4-5 Rupture cycle you said right? From what the EJ forums have been saying 4-5 SnD --> 4-5 Rupture --> 4-5 Evis is superior.

Also, from looking at all the attempts on Brut you did as Mute you guys seemed to go back and forth with the combat rogue drastically. Is he not as well geared? You guys were all over the place on those DPS charts.

Great info, thank you very much...

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Q u o t e:
I'm not gonna burst your bubble sir...
But I got rapped being Mutilate on Brutallus last night. Atleast 300dps difference between Mutilate and Combat swords. Seken and I swapped back to combat swords after a number of tries and the difference is significant. In a standard, tank and spank fight where you hardly move and you are not CC'd buffed/debuffed from the boss or adds, mutilate just paled in comparison.

I bumped the thread from yesterday, but it go no replies.

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No offense, but those mutilate numbers don't really add up. That 300dps difference (1400 and 1700) equals out to about an 18% overall dps difference. The difference between mutilate and combat swords pre-2.4 wasn't even 18% -- hell, the difference between shadowstep and combat swords was barely 18%.

What does combat swords have that mutilate doesn't? Well... sword spec, AR, BF, Combat Potency, and SA. Even if you don't calculate in the DPS gains from mutilate > SS, far greater CP per energy rate, and Find Weakness, I -still- don't see it as mathematically being 18% higher than mutilate.

Were there any mitigating circumstances that may have caused mutilate to fail? Did you have any trouble with rotations? Is there anything about Brutallus in particular that may have caused this (I know nothing of the encounter)? Were you in a different group setup?

It's just very odd, because you seemed to say it's a tank and spank with no movement. If that's the case, mutilate should perform far better than normal. One of the possible problems associated with mutilate is the chance of losing your poison stack if you're constantly being feared, or have to chase tail, or whatever.

Basically, can you give any further insight into the situation? Mathematically it just doesn't seem possible to have that large of a difference.

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Q u o t e:

You were running a 2-3 SnD 4-5 Rupture cycle you said right? From what the EJ forums have been saying 4-5 SnD --> 4-5 Rupture --> 4-5 Evis is superior.

Also, from looking at all the attempts on Brut you did as Mute you guys seemed to go back and forth with the combat rogue drastically. Is he not as well geared? You guys were all over the place on those DPS charts.

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Some of those attempts are borked from tanks dying early. If one of the tanks died early, some of the rogues would back before the others and vanish to try and save repair bills.

Try 7 and Try 8 are you best comparison.

Also, I'm using the combat cycle you yourself said to use the other day (3-4 SnD 4+ rupture, evis if possible).