After getting right into the swings of things with Naxxramas in 2.0, there are some very basic obvservations that may need to be re-iterated. Neither myself nor our 3 other Protection Spec tanks had any difficulty controlling aggro on trash and boss mobs; this post is in response to other 40-man raiding tanks who are having difficulties.

Always open with a Shield Slam (and get Shield Mastery!)
Always engage with a Shield Slam, not a Sunder Armor. The first hit is going to use your entire reserve of rage from a Bloodrage, so make it count. Getting Shield Mastery will increase your Shield Slam damage by 30% -- no small increase.


Get Devastate, regardless of your Weapon
One of my tanks uses a Widow's Remorse, another a Spineshatter (sadly). Devastate is an improvement in threat over Sunder Armor with either weapon -- yes, even that fast Widow's Remorse. Be sure you use Devastate only once 5 Sunder Armors have been applied!


Do not apply your own Sunders
This is something we picked up starting last night. We normally run with 8 Warriors in every raid, and now every one of them is expected to put up 1 Sunder Armor at the beginning of the fight -- with the exception of the Warrior actually tanking. This allows your tank to do a Shield Slam, Revenge, then begin immediately with Devastates. Obviously use common sense and apply your own Sunders if you don't have backup Warriors.

Threat priority remains intact
Shield Slam is your most important threat ability. Revenge comes next. Devastate next. Heroic Strike last. This hasn't changed, so don't be stupid and spam Devastate thinking it will be a godsend -- it isn't meant to be.

Don't ignore your talents and don't ignore Imp Sunder Armor
Being a tank has never been about strict mitigation; holding aggro against an ever-better-geared (and talented, not) raid is just as important. Keep this in mind when getting your spec.

Take a look at my spec:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-warrior/talents.html?300000000000000000000000500000000000000000000055501033002103501351

Notice some glaring oversights? No Deflection, no Improved Defensive Stance, no Last Stand? And I put points into Improved Sunder Armor instead of these?

No, I'm not crazy. I know my tanking damage intake. There is no fight in Naxxramas which threatens me health-wise atm, because I have an incredible crew of healers. Also, in AQ40 and Naxxramas, spell damage incoming on a tank is limited in scope -- even Sapphiron doesn't require an ounce of Frost Resist on the Main Tank.

What I do have is more important. I know building threat is harder this patch, not because we were weakened but because other classes were strengthened enormously. My Heroic Strikes cost 9 rage, as do my Sunder Armors; Shield Slam costs 17, Revenge only 2, and Devastate 12. Right now, even with Heroic Strike spam, I can only barely dump my rage in most fights.

Rage efficiency -- that is, having cheap abilities to use when you are low on rage on trash or off-tanking -- is a critical part of your class. You will find aggro much easier to control when you take rage out of the picture by dramatically increasing the efficiency of all of your abilities.

Improved Sunder Armor can be more rage efficient than Devastate depending on your situation. For instance, once I have aggro locked on Noth the Plaguebringer, I use Sunder Armor at that point instead of Devastate so I can reserve rage for his next blink. Thaddius' adds at the beginning are much the same way, as are finishing Gothik's adds, as are Four Horsemen.


Don't have Attack Power, Shield Block Value, or Crit?
Let's say you've gone out of your way to drop Strength on your gear in favor of Agility; let's say you are more focused on Dodge rating than your Stamina/Strength ratio given from most tanking gear. Let's say you were one of the people professing that Ahn'Qiraj gear with avoidance was better than Naxxramas gear with Shield Block Value. Fine. And if you are holding aggro just fine, that's even better.

But if you are having aggro problems, the solution is simple. Do what every class is already doing for their damage and mana -- grab some consumables. Elixir of the Mongoose and Elixir of Giants are a damn good start. This will help your Devastate output significantly. Blasted Lands buffs don't hurt. Elemental Sharpening Stones sure as heck don't hurt. You have options. If you happen to have that Dreadnaught Belt and Shoulders that you've been opting out, put them back on -- each Block Value point is now 30% more threat effective with Shield Mastery.


Still having problems?
Common sense dictates the final step if you can't resolve threat isn't to come post here with yet-another-rant, but to ask your DPS'ers to hold off a few seconds on each encounter until you have aggro built.

Most excellent.

Thanks. Such a breath of fresh air to get some lucid posts around here after all the angry screaming.

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Q u o t e:

Always open with a Shield Slam (and get Shield Mastery!)
Always engage with a Shield Slam, not a Sunder Armor. The first hit is going to use your entire reserve of rage from a Bloodrage, so make it count. Getting Shield Mastery will increase your Shield Slam damage by 30% -- no small increase.

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Have you tested that Shield Mastery does affect Shield Slam damage? I suspected Blizzard worded that talent that way to imply that it does not. I'd be delighted to hear otherwise.

Cider- have you written anywhere what you do for your interface/macros?

My threat issues haven't been centered around not generating threat, just that the amount of attention required to do so has drastically increased because I now need to keep my eyes cemented to my cooldowns. This signicantly impacts my situational awareness: I don't have nearly as much time to look at chat windows and mouselook around to see what is going on as I did before.

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Q u o t e:
One of my tanks uses a Widow's Remorse, another a Spineshatter (sadly). Devastate is an improvement in threat over Sunder Armor with either weapon -- yes, even that fast Widow's Remorse. Be sure you use Devastate only once 5 Sunder Armors have been applied!

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How much would you say a weapon's speed factors into the threat gen from devastate? Would you say it's worth taking slower, higher dps weapons (spineshatter) over faster, lower dps weapons (BLD) for the extra threat from devastate? I have been using a build similar to yours (minus the imp heroic strike) and haven't been experiencing the rage windfall that you have.

To put it simply, how much does weapon speed/low-high end damage effect devastate threat?

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Q u o t e:


Have you tested that Shield Mastery does affect Shield Slam damage? I suspected Blizzard worded that talent that way to imply that it does not. I'd be delighted to hear otherwise.

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I have tested this, and yes it works like this. 1966 Shield Slam crit in a duel! (with Recklessness and a handy trinket)

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Q u o t e:
Cider- have you written anywhere what you do for your interface/macros?

My threat issues haven't been centered around not generating threat, just that the amount of attention required to do so has drastically increased because I now need to keep my eyes cemented to my cooldowns. This signicantly impacts my situational awareness: I don't have nearly as much time to look at chat windows and mouselook around to see what is going on as I did before.

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I've gotten more time to get used to it because of time on Beta, but honestly, I'm just using the basic interface at the moment with a Click-Click-Click CTRA installed as well. I've never used macros for tanking; I have, however, tried to get my UI suited to easily seeing all of my cooldowns and healthbars in one spot.

More recently, I've gotten alot more focused on using the right abilities at the right times. Maybe 4 months ago I was relatively safe by doing something similar to button mashing (with Shield Slam and Heroic being used constantly, but never prioritizing Revenge/Sunder). Now, I'm alot more precise with the cooldowns, it just took a bit of time to get used to. I did this specifically to raise my DPS (oddly) in raids, and it carried over nicely to 2.0.

I also bind hotkeys for all of my most commonly used abilities. Unfortunately adding Devastate and Improved Sunder has thrown up the mix a bit, and finding a hotkey that was fairly interchangeable (and getting used to it) was tough. I've settled on "F" as Sunder and "4" as Devastate (not that my keybinds would be set up anything like other people's, but just in case!).

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Q u o t e:
How much would you say a weapon's speed factors into the threat gen from devastate? Would you say it's worth taking slower, higher dps weapons (spineshatter) over faster, lower dps weapons (BLD) for the extra threat from devastate? I have been using a build similar to yours (minus the imp heroic strike) and haven't been experiencing the rage windfall that you have.

To put it simply, how much does weapon speed/low-high end damage effect devastate threat?

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Here is a topic I made earlier, although several of the values need to be upped dramatically (for faster weapons) because the attack is Normalized. The bottom list assumes an infinite-rage environment for Main Tanking, the top list assumes less rage, and at the very end there is some math showing the rage-gained vs rage-spent efficiency with Improved Sunder Armor (you want a slow weapon for low-rage situations, or just to use Imp Sunder instead if it's for threat).
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=47142869&sid=1

Also, I'm fairly concise about building rage. If a mob isn't going to kill me with a crushing, I'm not going to use Shield Block. This is true particularly for Thaddius' adds and similar encounters, that may help your rage. But the 9-rage Heroic Strike is enormous and very noticeable by comparison to 12-rage (25% more efficient?).

Always great to see posts by you, Cider. Your Hold the Line guild really taught me a lot of theory behind tanking that has improved my understanding of my class even more.

With that said, I took a look at your spec and have some questions. Hopefully you have time to address them (or somebody else can).

- It seems like you avoided some talents because your current gear either does not require it, or your raiding group is organized enough that you can do away with it. This is good to know for my guild's future end game, but for guilds that are still learning encounters, or are not at 100% first time clear of instances (we wipe to Nef several times), would it be wise to put talent points into last stand or imp taunt (everything else you have done I have specced similarly so I have no other examples)?

- You should have the majority if not a full set of Dreadnaught by now, yet you put 20 points in defense. My working explanation is that you rank defense above parry. We both know what the value of Defense gives (for those who forgot 25 pts gives 1% to dodge block and parry and -1% chance to be critted, so quick math makes 20 points in defense a 0.8% increase in those four stats), so can I conclude that you place defense above parry, or is there another reason? Does(n't) defense eventually run into diminishing returns?

Also since you have better gear than most Warriors, would it be wise to spec in a similar manner? I have 370 defense. 5 pieces of might and two pieces of wrath. I put 5 points in parry but I might follow your build once my questions are answered.

- You mentioned opening with a shield slam rather than sunders. I actually have attempted this a few times since the new patch, and I find that if the shield slam is resisted in any way I am left running around trying to get aggro any other means necessary (usually hoping that autoswing grabs aggro) I suppose it is an inherent risk with a good payoff if successful. Would it be better to open with a sunder and then a shield slam? Is it weapon speed dependent decision?

Thanks in advance to anybody who answers.

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Q u o t e:
another a Spineshatter (sadly).

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I'm sick of morons thinking spineshatter is bad, yea it's slow but look at its stats, if you're full prot and have no problem with aggro, this weapon is amazing.

Yeah, I started using SS as an opener too but that left me rageless, and whatever trashmob it was would saunter off sometimes. I will try dropping my full damage mitigation build in favor of something more "manageable" tomorrow.

And using Blood Guards Defender, plain old sunder armor was still outdoing devastate ( at 5 sunders ) for me in terms of aggro, not by much but it was definitely better. ( I did some more testing ).

Also, Ciderhelm: Tell me what you think of my little theory: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=54856757&sid=1

Edit: For warriors who are not backed by a godly guild or have laggy healers, do yourself the favor, give up one point somewhere and spec last stand. Last Stand saves raids.

That's what I figured. I was just surprised that Cider doesn't have it.

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Q u o t e:
Getting Shield Mastery will increase your Shield Slam damage by 30% -- no small increase.

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Shield Slam is a base damage factor + shield block modifier. Shield Mastery is written as increasing shield blocked value by 30%. Are you saying that SM is (base+modifier)*1.3 or base+(modifier+1.3)?

I assumed it was the latter, but your comment suggests the former which really increased the value of SM.

Yeah Cider, I have to agree with some of the others. In some ways your gear is so good it makes up for things in your spec that most people playing tanks can't do.

I am the MT for my guild and am 5/0/46. We are only on Ragnaros, have cleared Hakkar/Jindo and are working on the big tick in AQ20.

If you are in an earlier postion like this I would say do not neglect Deflection and Do not neglect improved defensive stance. Unless your armor is mitigating a crap load of damage you will still have plenty of rage in raids.

Infact, since the patch I have noticed an increase in my overal rage during raid events. I use blood lords defender as my weapon. This weapon should be beyond the point where rage norm was a benefit. However, the new bloodrage and focused rage are amazing talents. If you can get your sunders to 10-11 points you will notice that you have more rage. 2 Point revenges is amazing. Focused rage will help you a ton because you will have an even harder time getting rid of all that rage. I noticed in my trip to AQ20 last night that I could tank my target and only worry about cooldowns. I didn't have any trouble holding aggro except when I got thrown. When we shifted to the other tank I often 50+ rage left even though I was using every abiltiy every time it came up. I could then spam devistate to help down the remaing foe and not pull aggro but generate way more dps than heroic strike. (Maybe this is the prupose of devistate, you use it dps as a tank).

My only other comment about devistate is that you should remeber what it is like when you first get shield slam. When it was 30 rage you never used it. Since it has been 20 do you know what it is like to be a level 41 warrior with it? or even 51? You don't really get to use it much and it doesn't seem to work right. It doesn't seme to hold threat like it does at 60 because with low block values it inflicts less damage and at levels below its max it just isn't that great. I bet that devistate works fine when it is half damage +35 instead of 25 and you have a decent leel 70 weapon.

Anyway, I have noticed no differance in rage (and infact an increase due to being newely effiecient) since the patch. Tanking raids is not a problem. Tanking 5 mans is though, dps classes will need to slow way down.

In fact, I don't know why there is not a bigger outcry about the design change that is the biggest warrior nerf ever. They are changing the dungeons to empasise the tankign styles of hte other classes and turn us into closers. Its going to get to be really dicey to be a warrior in a 5 man and in raids I would expect to be alone and only tank big bosses.

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Q u o t e:
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- You mentioned opening with a shield slam rather than sunders. I actually have attempted this a few times since the new patch, and I find that if the shield slam is resisted in any way I am left running around trying to get aggro any other means necessary (usually hoping that autoswing grabs aggro) I suppose it is an inherent risk with a good payoff if successful. Would it be better to open with a sunder and then a shield slam? Is it weapon speed dependent decision?

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With Imp Bloodrage, and a few seconds for it to tick, I usually queue a Heroic strike and hit sheild slam when it comes into range. Less likely that both will miss and still have something that caused some threat..

I'd also like to thank Cider for this wonderful thread, which has clarified and confirmed a few of my own thoughts. I'm finding that tanking in 2.0 is basically the same, which is problematic enough with the large increase in DPS and the attendant increase in aggro problems for other classes, but the decreased cost of abilities with Focused Rage and Imp Sunder make up for the rage nerf. I too find that I have rage leftover when tanking, and even on trash in Naxx and AQ40 I have plenty of rage to work with. I did make the mistake of not speccing into Shield Mastery when I first started, and have since fixed that.

As far as Devastate being a DPS tool, I have to believe that it's bugged at present, because 41 points for a skill like this seems silly, unless Blizz expects me to put up 5 sunders, whip out a big-ol 2h, and Devastate away (not an unattractive idea!). I do appreciate it while grinding, since it makes Prot grinding a lot more viable and a lot less dull.

As far as tanking 5-mans...that's why paladins exist it seems. That and the less than stellar tanking itemization in the beta suggest that warriors will all spec into DPS for leveling and go back to Prot for tanking endgame.

Very good points Cider. Overall, I can't really complain about the patch and what it did or didn't do for us as far as doing our job as tanks.

On Tuesday night after the patch, we hit Naxx up for a couple bosses just to get them out of the way and of course, we had the click lag and other mod crap to deal with as well. I did lose aggro a couple times while I was trying to figure out when to squeeze Devastate in but after working that into the normal tanking routine properly, I haven't had any issues whatsoever.

The only thing I can really complain about right about now is losing the animation on bloodrage! :P

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Q u o t e:


Always open with a Shield Slam (and get Shield Mastery!)
Always engage with a Shield Slam, not a Sunder Armor. The first hit is going to use your entire reserve of rage from a Bloodrage, so make it count. Getting Shield Mastery will increase your Shield Slam damage by 30% -- no small increase.

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If you don't have 6 piece dreadnaught bonus, this is a bad idea. If you miss, you end up having no rage at all, start off with something like sunder and heroic strike or at least a demo shout. If you miss(trust me it happens more often then not)...there goes the boss/mob and these days they will 1 shot two or three people before you can get a hold on them. Grats.

I hope you're not main tanking for your guild. -5% parry has to suck. What part of raid content are you guys on right now? Molten Core? Get deflection when you move to higher content, the amount of damage that mobs do when you get into BWL and AQ will be enough for you to do your own sunders and not need improved heroic strike. Imp bloodrage sucks.

Try a 5/5/41

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Q u o t e:
I'd also like to thank Cider for this wonderful thread, which has clarified and confirmed a few of my own thoughts. I'm finding that tanking in 2.0 is basically the same, which is problematic enough with the large increase in DPS and the attendant increase in aggro problems for other classes, but the decreased cost of abilities with Focused Rage and Imp Sunder make up for the rage nerf. I too find that I have rage leftover when tanking, and even on trash in Naxx and AQ40 I have plenty of rage to work with. I did make the mistake of not speccing into Shield Mastery when I first started, and have since fixed that.

As far as Devastate being a DPS tool, I have to believe that it's bugged at present, because 41 points for a skill like this seems silly, unless Blizz expects me to put up 5 sunders, whip out a big-ol 2h, and Devastate away (not an unattractive idea!). I do appreciate it while grinding, since it makes Prot grinding a lot more viable and a lot less dull.

As far as tanking 5-mans...that's why paladins exist it seems. That and the less than stellar tanking itemization in the beta suggest that warriors will all spec into DPS for leveling and go back to Prot for tanking endgame.

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Unfortunately, Devastate only works with a 1h weap on the main hand :P. I hadn't payed attention to that myself until I went looking for it while using a Nightfall on Loatheb last night, lol.

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Q u o t e:


Unfortunately, Devastate only works with a 1h weap on the main hand :P. I hadn't payed attention to that myself until I went looking for it while using a Nightfall on Loatheb last night, lol.

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GAH! /wrists

Ah well, more reason to grab me a Servo Arm I suppose.

I often quote Hold the Line to my warriors, and I always make a point of reading your posts, but I question putting 3 points in Improved Sunder (typically a talent I've always avoided).

If you aren't stacking your own sunders to start the fight, you say that you can barely dump rage in most fights, then I can't see the value of -3 rage on sunder. Last Stand and a couple points of deflection > any rare situational use for this talent. If you want to conserve a little extra rage, you can always hold back a second on a HS spam.

Overall I agree with the OP, especially with the comments on Devastate.

I personally don't think giving up Deflection is ever a good idea. You can't replace that parry with gear, it just isn't there.

I also couldn't bring myself to give up Cruelty, I can't get that anywhere else. That left 41 only for Protection, and I decided to skip Imp Sunder because I was getting Focused Rage, taking my Sunders down to 12. That's what I had before, and its what I'm used to. I used to use Sunder all the time, now I don't, improving it further didn't seem to make much sense when I could get Imp Defensive stance and Sheild blocking, talents that will for sure come into play on many occasions.

Imp Sunder helps more on trash when aggro is sketchier, and rage is tougher to come by. For boss tanking, its a bad talent because you'll never need to re-apply. You can also have other warriors help apply sunders to get to Devastate faster, further reducing its usefulness.

9 Rage Sunders will help more in a low warrior setting such as the 5 and 10 man action in the expansion.