This should answer 99% of the same questions that get asked about Mutilate on a daily basis. If anyone can think of any other questions that frequently are asked, or if I made an error (excuse me, this is my alt, not a main, but WoW is easy to comprehend overall), feel free to suggest something I should add or correct ASAP.

Now editted to cover PVE a bit more, and some notes added about upcoming 2.4 changes.

1. [PVP/PVE] What is Mutilate?

Mutilate is a deep assassination tree talent (41 pt talent) that is an instant attack which costs 60 energy and attacks with both weapons simultaneously (similar to Stormstrike), dealing damage + 101 per weapon at it's highest rank. This only works with daggers. If the target has any poison debuffs on them whatsoever at the time of using Mutilate, the damage done is increased by 50%. Each Mutilate rewards 2 combo points. If you have Seal Fate, which pretty much all Mut rogues should and will have, then either hand critting gives you 3 CP out of the skill. If both hands crit, you still only get 3. You must be behind your target to use Mutilate, much like Backstab.

2. [PVP/PVE] What weapons should I use for a Mutilate spec?

Daggers. As Mut only works with daggers, both hands should be equipped with one.

3. [PVP/PVE] What speed daggers are best? Slow offhand or f ast offhand?

1.8 speed in both hands is the generally accepted norm for a Mutilate build. Slower daggers will hit harder when used to Mutilate. It's recommended to go off the average damage of the dagger, rather than just the top-end. Of course, the weapon's DPS usually can reveal it's general quality, for more reasons than just yellow damage. A fast offhand dagger (1.4) is also accepted as an alternative. Your offhand Mutilates will hit slightly weaker, but you will gain the benefit of cheaper shivs and faster poison application.

Basically a summary: Fast offhand for cheap shivs/faster poison procs, but less offhand damage. Slow offhand for higher burst, but 38 energy shivs and slightly slower poison proc chance.

4. [PVP/PVE] What poisons should I be using?

PVP: Wound main hand/Crip offhand for most purposes. If for some reason you run Mutilate with a warrior, for example, you can switch wound out for Mind Numbing, or whatever might please you more. I prefer to keep wound as the stacking effect makes it harder to nullify my bonus damage from poisons.

PVE: Instant or Deadly mainhand, Deadly offhand. If windfury totem is available, leave the mainhand empty and offhand Deadly.

5. [PVP/PVE] What are some good Mutilate specs and why?

49/0/12 - Deep Poison: Gets you the most vital sub talents for small bracket PVP (MoD, Opportunity, Dirty Tricks), and makes your poisons much, much more effective, while keeping all the worthwhile assassination talents. Which points you sacrifice for those extra points in Sub are up to you.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fbe0RETsidVoZEM <- One variation. You can move some points around but this has most of the must-have talents.

50/0/11 - Deep Poison (for Nelfs): Nelfs are better using a spec like this since they get natural MOD from racials, so you can sacrifice a point in MOD (mod 4 is still more effective than mod 5 without shadowmeld), this just lets you put more points in your assassination tree. Or if you just don't care not having that extra point or two in MOD. How you allocate your points is up to you.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fbe0REgsidVoZyM <- again, move some points to your preference.

41/0/20 - Mut/Sublety: I'm not a fan of this spec myself, but some like it. Gives you deeper talents in Sub and just the bare minimum in assassination. Subelty down to Serrated Daggers and improved Blind cooldown. This spec will make your Blinds come up more often and make it easier for you to sap, as well as avoid being seen, and also give you passive armor pen and bleed damage. However, this spec does less damage overall than 41/20/0, and suffers from lack of poison talents, meaning your poisons are more easily removed or resisted.
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fbe0RgMsikVoZEMc0Mh

41/20/0 - Mut/Combat: Dual Wield spec also increases your Mut damage by directly increasing the damage your offhand dagger does. Your white damage and hit rate are also much higher. This spec will pretty much cover your +hit needs for PVP and also give you decent damage when you aren't using Mutilate, and Improved Sprint is handy as well. This spec, like 41/0/20 suffers from lack of poison efficiency. The ONLY way to spec for PVE
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fbe0RgMsikVohdVbbV (PVP build)
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fheboEMoizVohfV0bV (PVE build)

6. [PVP/PVE] Opportunity or DW Spec?

No matter what, Dual Wield spec is BETTER. However, due to the nature of some specs, the only one that makes use of this is 41/20/0. If you CAN'T get Dual Wield spec with your talent composition, then get Opportunity, because it is better than having neither. But in terms of doing MORE DAMAGE, DW spec is always > Opportunity.

The reason is that while Opportunity increases your total mut damage by that 20%, DW Spec is increasing your offhand Mutilates directly, which translates into more damage total. On top of that, DW spec makes your offhand damage much more valuable, especially with SnD up.

So don't think about it too hard, DW Spec is always the better choice.

7. [PVE] Is Mutilate good for PVE?

Viable, yes. Optimal, no. Combat swords is still proven to be the best PVE spec for damage. If you do go Mutilate for PVE, it is viable but comes up short of Combat Swords by a small margin. So in other words, they're both acceptable in PVE, but also remember that if the boss in question is immune to poisons your damage will be severely nerfed due to the poison requirements of Mutilate.

8. [PVP/PVE] Will Mutilate be better in 2.4?

Better yes, but still short of Combat Swords.

9. [PVP] Should I go Mutilate for PVP?

If you want.

10. [PVP] Shadowstep or Mutilate?

Pros and Cons of going either spec:
SHADOWSTEP----

Pros: High mobility, won't be kited very easily, consistent damage output since you can stay on a target almost indefinitely. Does some okay damage with decent burst once the target is below 35%. Energy usage isn't very efficient overall, but any weapon will work with Sstep since there are no weapon specs involved. Relatively easy to pick up and be successful with. Cheat death means you won't die as easily if you are focused, and you have two sets of cooldowns.

Cons: General burst output is mediocre unless you have full energy saved and a target under 35%. Sustained damage is mediocre.

MUTILATE----------

Pros: Impressive on-demand burst and synergy with other burst classes. Powerful CP and energy efficiency. Fleet Footed and Quick Recovery mean you move faster than any other class and don't need a speed enchant, and also are easier to heal. Generally with the right gems and enchants Mut rogues have a 20% chance to resist snare/root effects, which comes in handy against CD roots such as frost nova. The burst potential and poison efficiency of the spec makes up for some of it's cons. Improved Kidney shot goes well with burst teams and makes pretty much anything rather squishy for up to 6 seconds.

Cons: Mobility sucks. Prepare to be kited, and you have only one set of cooldowns. You are more easily focused down without Cheat Death. If you aren't 41/20/0 your sustained damage is poor in between Mutilates. Difficult learning curve, takes a lot of practice to be successful with.

COMPARITIVE CP/ENERGY EFFICIENCY----------------------

SSTEP: Out of stealth a minimum of 140 energy is required to reach 5 CP. A maximum of 175 energy. This relies entirely upon whether Relentless procs or not. Average CPPE of Hemo is (Combo point per energy) 35 energy per CP.

MUT: Out of stealth, minimum 95 energy to reach 5 CP. A Maximum of 190 to reach 5 CP, based on Relentless. The maximum is assuming no RS proc and that you only use non-crit shivs to reach 5 CP. Using Mutilate+Shiv to even out the CP generation, all non-crit, 2 muts + 1 shiv for a maximum of 155. Average CPPE of Mutilate 20 energy per CP, to 30 energy per CP based on Seal Fate.

Using this information, make your own decision. If you can't stand a challenge, don't go Mutilate. You will be kited a lot, and laughed at for your spec choice... that is, until you catch up to them and two shot 'em. If this sounds like your kind of style, then good luck!

11. [PVP/PVE] What kind of skill rotation should I use?

In PVP, generally you want to get 5 Expose Armor up ASAP, this will proc Find Weakness (10% increased damage for 10 seconds). You want to use your CP to generate Find Weakness whenever possible, as this will consistently keep your damage high. If this means dumping 1 CP to Slice n' Dice, then it can't hurt. Once 5 EA is up, store up 5 CP and wait for energy to reach about 100, drop a 5 pt Kidney Shot and start the burst chain: Mutilate > Cold Blood > Mutilate > Eviscerate. This is generally where Mut's powerful burst comes in. 9% more dmg from KS, and 10% from Find Weakness, in addition to your target having about 3k or less armor removed (depending on passive armor penetration).

In PVE your rotation is *slightly* different than a combat swords rogue, since seal fate is entirely unpredictable. You may get 5 CP by the time you just put your last rupture up, or SND, you might not. Basically just watch your durations and reapply, in order of priority: Slice n' Dice -> Rupture. If either of these fall you probably are doing something wrong. If you find yourself sitting comfortably at 4-5 CP and you have a while before either goes down, dumping the combo points on an evisc is practical. Most importantly, keeping Find Weakness up is important. If the duration is about to fall, a short CP SnD can re-proc it but most of all keep this buff rolling. 10% more damage to your abilities is pretty important as an underdog spec.

12. [PVP] Doesn't resilience make daggers worthless?

No. This is a common misconception/myth that goes around and it has been debunked countless times. At capped resil you're looking at about 12% crit reduction, and 25% crit damage removed. This affects ALL rogues, not just Mutilate. However in order to generate a 3rd CP one hand must crit. Each hand's possibilty of critting is calculated seperately, that is, if you have 30% chance to crit, each hand has a 30% chance to crit. The math is a bit more complicated, which I'll cover later.

13. [PVP/PVE] What is a good benchmark of stats for Mutilate in PVP?

Crit/Agi are your most important stats. You should, ultimately have at LEAST 32% crit for solid PVP results, and high 1400's to low 1500's AP minimum (I roll with about 1500 AP in season 1 gear). It is somewhat difficult to boost these stats much higher without sacrificing one for the other or wearing strictly PVE gear.

*Could use some suggestions of what a good benchmark for PVE stats looks like from some more experienced PVE Muters.

14. [PVP/PVE] What should I gem?

PVP------------
Yellow sockets: Either +8 crit or +4 crit / +8 AP
Red sockets: +8 AGI or +16 AP.
Blue sockets: +8 AP/+4crit -> +6stam (purple gems for red sockets if you want more stam)
Meta: +12 crit rating / +5% snare+root resist. +12 agi & 3% crit damage bonus

PVE------------
Yellow: 4hit/4agi
Red: 8agi
Blue: 4agi/6stam
Meta: 12agi +3% crit damage

14a. [PVP] What was this about 20% snare resist?

With Enigmatic Skyfire Diamond meta gem (see above) and Surefooted enchant to boots (+10 hit & 5% snare/root resist), and Fleet Footed combined you have 20% chance to completely resist a snaring or root effect. This includes wing clip, hamstring, piercing howl, frost nova, entrapment, any of those.

Quick note: FROST TRAP is not resistable, but the Entrapment proc is.

14b. [PVP/PVE] Wait, so AGI or AP?

If you are reasonably geared out in mostly season 3 gear, AGI gives you more for your money. More crit, AP, dodge, (armor), etc. While you will rarely have kings in arena, it brings more benefit to you as your gear improves. In other words, if you are above that 32%/1500 AP benchmark, start to ween yourself into using Agi gems to increase your crit and keep your AP high. The passive dodge will only help you in the long run too, as well as the minimal armor increase.

AP gems are good when you're just hitting 70 and gearing up in season 1. This will get you to a decent AP level faster. As you can see with my gear I use mostly AP gems, because without them I'd be sitting at a pathetically low amount of AP, but my crit might be maybe 1% higher.

Now in PVE, AGI is superior in every way, since it directly increases both your crit and AP, but most of all, you will have kings in raids, so the AGI scales with this buff. AP does not.

15. [PVP/PVE] The Math

"If I have 30% crit on each hand, that means I actually have 60% chance to crit! RIGHT!?"

It works out more like this:

If your target has no resilience, and you have 32% crit, each hand has 32% chance to crit individually. This means you have a ~54% chance for ONE hand to crit, at least. To figure this out you take the probability of each hand (32%), add them together (64%), and then subtract the multiplicant of the two 32% x 32% = ~10%, so 64% - 10% = ~54%. I shaved off decimal points but that is the general idea, I may be off by 1% at most.

So after 2.4, with 32% base crit lets see what your odds are with Mutilate on a capped Resilience target.

32% + 15% bonus from PW = 47% chance per hand to crit.
Capped resilience target (-12%) = 35% chance per hand to crit.

35% + 35% = 70% (sum)
35% x 35% = 12% (multiplicant)

70% - 12% = 58% <-- CHANCE FOR ONE HAND TO CRIT.
35% x 35% = 12% <-- CHANCE FOR BOTH HANDS TO CRIT.
The rest would infer that neither hand crits.

*Would like to add some math pertaining to PVE, WTB EJ forums post link?

16. [PVP] Can Mutilate be successful in Arena?

A lot of people will say "no" flat out. Just look up some of the more well known resident Mutilate junkies: Seikun, Cramerr, Megaphone. All have top rankings on their battlegroups as Mutilate. There are many 2k+ Mut rogues out there (me included /stroke /stroke), so it is still a viable and powerful spec, however less represented, so it gives the illusion of not being as effective.

17. [PVP] How come I can't get Mutilate to work?

The playstyle is nothing like Shadowstep, for the most part. If you want to try the spec, do not try to play it like you do playing Shadowstep or any other "Combat"-esque talent build.

18. [PVP] I have high ping, will that hurt me?

Yes. Having anything over 300 ping will make Mutilate exceedingly frustrating to play.

19. [PVP] Can I actually kill Druids as Mutilate?

If you can catch them, out of bear form, with their trinket down, without NS up, and without barkskin up, you can easily take them instantly from 80% to dead in one kidney shot. In other words, probably about as easiliy as you can as shadowstep, only you must plan around killing them in one fel swoop.

20. [PVP] What are good arena partners for Mutilate?

2v2: Disc/Shadow priest, warlock, frost mages (sstep is better IMO though), druids.
3v3: RMP, RWD, Shadow Priest or 3dps teams work alright.
5v5: 4 dps or 3dps/eurocomp.

21. [PVP/PVE] What trinkets are best for Mutilate?

In order of preference (my opinion)

1. Renataki's Charm of Trickery: Instantly restores 40 energy, level 60 trinket. Takes about 6 weeks to farm at the bare minimum. You get this out of ZG by doing the Edge of Madness event and killing 4 different bosses. Well worth it if you have the patience. Basically this 3 min trinket lets you pull off a burst chain involving 3 mutilates and 2 evisc.

2. Ashtongue BT trinket: If you have access to this, this is probably your best bet. Especially with the 2.4 change to Mut's crit rate, your crit rate will be insane with this baby procced.

3. Bloodlust Brooch/Berserker's Call: If you can maintain benchmark crit, these are very good trinkets to have for delivering that burst chain. Either or.

4. AP or Crit Battlemaster Trinket: Crit trinket if you are lacking crit, AP trinket if you have a good minimum crit rate and need more AP. Either way you get a bit more survival with these, especially since you're more vulnerable to being focused down.

For PVE, trinket priority: *suggestions of other good PVE Mut trinkets welcome here!

1. Ashtongue
2. BL/Zerker's Call
3. Darkmoon Card: Crusade
4. Hourglass
5. *Suggestions welcome

22. [PVP] Why go anything but 41/20 for PVP if it is the highest burst?

Utility. Especially in 2v2, a match can completely be decided upon whether you get caught/sapped or not. Obviously to get DW spec (41/20) you can't get anything in sub, meaning you are easy to detect. With the number of hunter or warlocks you'll face, and especially humans, good luck getting that sap off, especially without the increased range. Since you can't have the best of both worlds, MOD apparently comes off to be more important, so many top rated rogues go deep poison 49/0/12 or 50/0/11 to get a useful spec, as well as the subtelty talents for arena.

In higher brackets such as 5v5, you can probably go with 41/20 more easily since it is difficult to successfully avoid aoe and other detection in getting an early sap off. Plus you want to maximize your damage output when bursting someone down.

23. [PVP/PVE] What good is master poisoner?

10% less resist on poisons, and 30% chance to resist poisons may seem somewhat useless. Think about it this way. When you're up against another rogue, you now have 50% chance to resist crippling poison, and 30% to resist wound. How is this beneficial? With Fleed Footed + the right gem/enchants 50% chance to make the other rogue waste a GCD shivving is priceless. This means they are doing less damage to you over time than you are probably doing to them.

10% less poison resist is invaluable as well. This means you have a higher chance of reapplying a poison even on a cloaked rogue (i've often been able to get a new crip up before their cloak wears off). This can save your partner on many occasions, and allow you to get poisons back up so you can mut through cloak. This talent is mostly useful against other rogues, not so much other classes, except for the chance for poisons to ignore resist, which is always nice to have. This means less time shivving crippling because it got resisted twice in a row, or something stupid like that.

In PVE, 1 pt in this talent might be efficient, if you are having problems applying poison for some reason or another.

24. [PVP/PVE] What about backstab/ambush?

Worthless. Sometimes I'll open with Ambush on a squishy looking clothie in a BG, but that is as far as I'd go. Until 2.4 3 points in improved backstab, a skill that costs the same energy as Mut, and gives 1 less CP is a waste. Especially when it does less damage even when it crits. Same goes for Ambush. A double crit mutilate > crit ambush anyway. While not as reliable as the bonus crit on Ambush, it's still a waste of points on something you will NEVER, EVER use in arena.

SOMETIMES I'll open with this in PVE, but generally Garrote adds up to more damage unless Ambush crits.

25. [PVP/PVE] How important is Expose Armor?

Very. Improved Expose gives you ~1000 more armor reduction at 5 points, roughly. On low armor targets you see the greatest dps increase overall. If a target has 3k armor, they have around 20-22% damage mitigation. Reduce that to 0, and well, you're effectively increasing all damage they take by 20-22%. See how that is synergetic with Mutilate? Burst, baby.

Against higher armor targets this benefit is reduced, but 6-10% more damage even on a shield wearing plate user is useful if you have the CP to spare, which you most likely will as Mut.

Posted by Lateo:

---

Q u o t e:


Mitigation due to armor = Armor / (Armor + 10557.5) @ lvl 70.

Using that you can determine if opponent has X armor and you reduce it by Y you can determine the increase in damage. Numbers I've used for armor are:
Clothie: 1700 armor -> 14% mitigation -> after 5pt imp. EA -> 0 armor - > 0 mitigation
Leather: 3700 armor -> 26% mitigation -> after 5pt imp. EA -> 625 armor -> 6% mitigation
Mail (no shield): 7700 -> 42% mitigation -> after 5pt imp. EA -> 4625 armor -> 30% mitigation
Mail w/shield or Plate no shield -> 11000 armor -> 51% mitigation -> after 5pt imp. EA -> 7925 armor -> 43% mitigation
Plate w/shield -> 16500 -> 61% mitigation -> after 5pt imp. EA -> 13425 -> 56% mitigation

These are just approx numbers I pulled from looking at some guildies armories one afternoon so you can at least get a genearl idea of the benefits you get.

---

In PVE it is assumed your tank is a warrior, DO NOT EVER USE EXPOSE ARMOR WITH A WARRIOR TANK. This directly nerfs his threat output as he cannot stack sunders on top of EA, and is literally locked out from using the ability. It also blocks devastate's sunder effect, but not the damage component, reducing the threat output by a good 80% or so.

26. [PVP/PVE] How does Find Weakness Work?

Everytime you use a finishing move, whether it's at 1 CP or 5 CP, you get a 10 second buff that increases the damage done by your ABILITIES by 10%. This does not apply to white damage, only abilities, such as shiv, gouge, mutilate, etc.

27. [PVP/PVE] Enchants

While this should be standard for any rogue, this is generally how you enchant your gear.

Helm: Glyph of Ferocity (90g from vendor, Revered with Cenarion Expedition) +34 AP +16 Hit
Shoulders: Aldor/Scryer Exhalted enchant
Legs: 50AP/12crit Nethercobra (epic) 40AP/10crit Cobrahide (blue), 40Stam/12Agi Nethercleft (epic) 30Stam/10Agi Clefthoof (blue), use Stamina enchants only really for PVE if you need the stam badly. In all cases I can think of though the AP enchants are superior in every way.
Chest: +6 stats for PVE, +15 resil for PVP. +6 stats works for PVP too if you don't mind having less resil for more overall stats (12 more AP total and a tiny crit boost, 6 stam also).
Bracer: +24 AP
Boots: Surefooted for PVP definitely, or Cat's Swiftness/12 agi for PVE (Cat's would be a bit redundant since you don't get any use out of the speed).
Rings: +stats or +weapon damage (if you are an enchanter)
Cloak: +12 agi
Gloves: +15 agi
Weapons: Mongoose/Mongoose.

28. [PVP/PVE] How does 2.4 affect Mutilate?

In patch 2.4 (upcoming) Mutilate is pretty much staying the same, with one exception. The talent Improved Backstab is being changed to "Puncturing Wounds", which increases Mutilate's crit chance by 15% at 3/3 points, in addition to backstab's 30% crit bonus (although this really isn't important to note).

29. [PVE] How does 2.4 rank Mutilate in comparison to PVE Combat Daggers or Combat Swords?

Extensive testing hasn't been done, but obviously a buff is a buff. Mutilate is viable pre-2.4 for PVE according to a large number of sources on the EJ forums (link to theorycraft post?), and should be about the same after 2.4, if nothing more relatively closer to Combat Swords. Not sure how Combat Daggers relates, also. Would appreciate some feedback on this topic a bit more.

As of now, however, Mutilate will still be viable, and Combat Swords will still be marginally better. Of course, my theory is if you have 91 dps swords, and season 3 daggers, you probably would do better as Mutilate or ComDags =]

30. [PVE] Is it possible to have enough crit to always get Seal Fate procs on Mutilate?

This was brought up, and while the actual end answer came out to be silly, I thought I'd post this just for clarification of what such probability would require. In order to be guaranteed 3 CP from Seal Fate when you mutilate, you need 100% chance for ONE hand to crit, minimum. So basically, this only can be achieved with 100% base crit.

1.0 + 1.0 = 2.0
1.0 x 1.0 = 1.0
2.0 - 1.0 = 1.0 = 100% chance for one hand to crit. =P

But if you are musing over this still, look at some other requirements for "higher" crit chances.

At 90% base crit = 99% chance for one hand to crit
At 80% base crit = 96% chance for one hand to crit
At 70% base crit = 91%
At 60% base crit = 84%
At 50% base crit = 75%
At 40% base crit = 64% (*Note, this is the most possible with raid buffs, LOTP, and ashtongue rolling)
At 30% base crit = 51%

As you can see, having a BASE crit of 30% would yield a 3 CP Mutilate roughly 1 in 2 mutilates, and growing exponentially from there. In 2.4 check out the fact that even at 30% base (low) you're looking forward to 45% base crit, somewhere between 64-75% chance to crit on one hand , and with raid buffs you can expect the 3/4 mark on seal fate procs. So while this discussion didn't yield the target we were looking for, you can see that 35% base crit would cause some phenomenal results in your CP efficiency, once 2.4 comes out. Add in LOTP and Ashtongue and you probably can push the 84% threshold. This is about as close to logical possibi

31. [PVP] Why do Mutilate rogues have such low AP compared to Shadowstep?

Sinister Calling and Deadliness mostly. We don't get the 10% AP bonus, or the 15% agi bonus from talents. Is this significant? If we had access to both of these Sub talents it would be like having the AP boost of Blood Fury, and more crit, permanently (/drool)... one can dream, but that would be a bit overpowering.

Mut rogues at 1500 AP are actually in a good zone, but we also should balance CRIT and here's why. Mutilate gets the most benefits, not only because crit damage is incredible burst, but because of the 3 CP we get from it. Sure you can stack AP, and maybe push 1600 AP or so (PVP gear), but consider that you sacrifice a LOT of crit to do so, and this in the end nerfs your actual burst. If neither hand crits on a mut, you are effectively doing poor damage (about the same as a sstep hemo crits for altogether). Because of this, it is generally agreed that Crit and AP are equivalent in importance for a good PVP Mutilate stat build.

32. [PVP/PVE] How much +hit should I have? How important is +hit?

The general consensus for rogues in pvp is that +hit, or at least gemming for hit is pretty much nonexistant. I don't see any do it, and there is a good reason. Take warriors for example. A base hit rating of about 79 is the recommended cap for PVP. This is the absolute minimum you need to avoid yellow swings missing against a lv 70 opponent. The thing is, warrior's main attack, Mortal Strike, costs 30 energy and is on a 6 second cooldown. In a fast paced 5v5 where generally the warrior is ignored and is mostly rage starved, missing an MS (forget dodge/parry, this is going to happen regardless) means losing most of that rage, getting no result, and having to wait 6 seconds for it to come up again. This can be devastating in a game that comes down to a few digits here or there. So therefore, for warriors, hit is a necessity in PVP.

For rogues, with the exception of maybe KS, which gets resisted/dodged/parried more times than I think I actually land it, or even "miss" with it, everything we use is on a 1 second GCD, and is spammable provided we have the energy to use it.

FOR THIS REASON: +HIT is nice, but not a priority. Your season 3 set will pretty much cover all the hit you want or need naturally, and if you are combat Mutilate specced, you are pretty much getting 5% hit for free.

PVE WISE - Your white damage will still average out to between 60-70%, so hit is more necessary for PVE, especially. Seeing as you get a bonus 5% from talents also, you can consider a few factors. CP generation is just as important as your white damage. Therefore, crit and hit are equally important. The general consensus seems to place the Mutilate hit benchmark a bit lower than that of Combat Swords, which relies on higher +hit to generate more energy. Mutilate generates CP through crit, instead of purely energy generation. You don't have combat potency as Mutilate, so do the math.

A reasonable benchmark appears to be about 220-250 hit rating, 1800 AP and above 30% crit rate base. See #30 for some interesting theorycraft on base crit rate, 2.4, and your actual chance of proccing Seal Fate bonus CPs.

33. [PVE] How do I level as Mutilate?

While I see this question a lot and don't really have a solid answer to give anyone, my first response would be that I don't recommend levelling as Mutilate, for several reasons. One, the earliest you'll obtain this skill is level 50, at which there currently aren't very many available daggers that are good.

Two, the positional requirements are somewhat difficult to get the hang of when playing solo. Obviously, you have to be behind the target, and when a PVE mob is focused on you, this isn't exactly possible. There are ways to overcome this of course, and some say it's a good way to get the hang of playing Mutilate in PVP, but I disagree. In order to get Mutilates off you have to work in chains of using Gouge and Kidney Shot to hold the target in place long enough to get into position. You also rely on the burst damage to take out mobs relatively quickly. In between Mutilates, for CP, you would be forced to rely on Sinister Strike.

Even still, levelling as Mutilate lacks some core combat talents until the 60s or so (imp gouge and imp sinister strike would be somewhat useful if you're using this route to level), but also take into mind your base crit rate from 50-69 is going to be dismal, in a spec that needs crit to be powerful.

If you insist on levelling as Mutilate, take into mind you'll simply have to get into the habit of juggling energy, having a general lack of grinding efficiency compared to Combat, and not much in the ways of handling multiple mobs effectively. Generally a PVE rotation when solo'ing would consist mostly of opening with Cheap Shot, applying poison, and dropping a mutilate for early burst. Secondly waiting on energy or SS'ing for CP, and either gouging to get behind them, or kidney shotting likewise to do the same. Getting into this pattern does give you a feel for the general energy dance associated with the spec, and learning to conserve energy for timed bursts rather than spamming.

34. [PVE/PVP] How do I deal with the positional requirements in PVE and PVP?

PVE: Very simply put, you will have a tank. Positioning shouldn't be a heavy problem, with the exception of boss mobs that require a lot of mobility. A good example is Shade of Aran. The boss has no real threat table so he spins around constantly to reach his targets. For this reason, and coupled with the Flame Wreath ability he has, Mutilate is sort of in a bad position, as everytime he turns you have to readjust. If you're in melee range, he turns, and you're stuck in a flame wreath, you can see where this puts your spec in a state of limbo.

On a lighter note, most bosses you'll see the raid standing behind anyhow, and as this is the basic requirement for Mutilate's raid dps, this shouldn't be an issue. The only issue being that everytime you have to move away from the boss in question, poisons may fall off before you get back, meaning either shivving or waiting for a new application to Mutilate again.

PVP: This is mostly where the complaints about the spec lie. Coupled with lack of mobility and the fact smart players can use this to your disadvantage, keeping your back "invisible" to a Mutilate rogue can be a frustrating experience for one. Example, a druid you are pursuing gets smart, goes Bear form, and huddles up to a wall with his back to it. This presents the issue of the fact that you can't visibly get behind him (although you actually can, I'll explain), and the fact that you're also pidgeonholing yourself into a corner for the other team to focus you. You may also be up against players that think spinning like a crazy person will prevent Mutilate from working (also a myth, though this does cause frustration with Gouge). A few techniques to get used to if you plan to play this highly positional spec.

1. The Jump-Through: Where you literally jump through your target, spin around quickly and mash your Mutilate key, in an attempt to "surprise" them with a jab before they can turn around to prevent it. This is generally your only way to get off a Mutilate when you are snared, but in relative melee range of your target. If the player tries to get smart about this maneuver, generally you can mix it up a bit, pretend like you're going to hop through them and stay put, but generally mashing your Mutilate key is best when you're having difficulty, as lag can eventually help you get one off depending on how reactive your target is.

2. Running the Perimeter: Running in a constant circle around the player's hitbox and mashing Mutilate, basically works in large cluster****s where you can't necessarily find their back (hate gnomes especially when my camera is somewhat zoomed out). The general idea is eventually you will find their back.

3. Side stabbing: This is the counter to people who plant their backs against a wall. It works pretty well, and just involves kind of hugging their side and Mut mashing. There's a forgiving window where the side of the player's hitbox usually can count as the backside, and I've found against people who think this works, that I usually can make them the fool and cost them a game for trying it.

4. Anti-Top Spam: If you're up against someone who thinks making himself dizzy is at your disadvantage, he'll probably think again, if nothing else this REMOVES the positional requirement, and I've found against such targets I can just simply Mut Mash and find the back pretty quickly, without having to move. Gouging on the other hand is somewhat a different story.

Above all else, you should be saving your stuns for moments when maximum burst is possible, when possible. Against hard-to-kill healers, energy is better saved for a good interrupt rotation (kick > gouge > ks > kick > gouge > ks > etc.), this applies mostly to paladins of course. Generally if you see yourself nearing the 100 energy mark, this is a good time to throw a kidney shot. The stun gives you the perfect positional alignment to deliver a burst chain. Gouge also work for getting a quick energy efficient mut in as gouge gives you a moment to recover some energy.

Just remember patience is a key virtue in this build, and your burst will make up for a lot of your lackluster dps in-between. Also remember that while the positional requirement is annoying, it should not limit your ability to do your job. At least, I haven't had any problems with it using the above tips.

Discussion: [PVP] How do I beat X class 1v1 as Mutilate?

Least respected, mostly underestimated. Here's some strats I use to fight other classes 1v1, or in a duel. Note this rarely applies to arena play unless it comes down to 1v1 for some reason or another. But knowing how to take a class 1v1 can be applied to broader team play, and handling yourself against their abilities in the case of multitasking.

Vs. Warriors: Biggie right here. You probably are going to be less effective than Shadowstep, plain and simple, since bleed kiting is superior with the talents Sstep offers. Still, 5-8 kiting is your most valuable skill in a 1v1 situation. If they duel you with t6 tanking gear on, congratulate them for being tools and just decline the duel. No rogue is going to win against 18k HP and that much armor in 1v1, but no warrior is going to wear that stuff in real arena. Open with Cheap shot, build 5 CP, make sure you get a crip up at least, and 5-8 until energy builds up (at least to 60-80), dive back in, and drop a 5 point EA here, if you get a relentless CP proc, just SnD, jumping through them back and forth to get your Muts off, and get 5 CP again, rupture, 5-8, regen energy. You can blow evasion after the EA and stay in to get some white damage off with SnD, get them to about 40-50% and drop an imp KS before EA falls off. If they trinket, immediately blind and reset. (I usually don't use rupture before this because most of the time warriors do in fact trinket the KS). You probably have a bleed ticking on you at this point. Try to time your stealth->CS around the bleed ticks. Stealth just as you take a tick of damage, and then immediately hit CS and start your rotation again, 5EA immediately , 5-8, build CP and KS again, then drop your chain. This will guaranteed finish off that last 40% of him. BIG NOTE ON WARRIORS: You're still going to lose badly if they get lucky and hit you through evasion a lot, or get chain mace stuns. You are severely at a disadvantage against any warrior, no matter how good you are. Get used to it. You are the paper to their scissors. If they use a shield the entire fight, you probably can out-perform their damage with your burst, but bleeding more might be a better strat if they're shield hogs.

Vs. Mages: Two ways to handle this. One opening with garrote, one opening with Cheap shot. Garrote means you have 3 seconds to get your shiv up before they either nova or blink away, and a DOT component to wittle away at them somewhat. Cheap shot means you waste their blink early and have an opening to drop a KS on them without any escape (other than Ice Block). I prefer CS, but I also shiv ASAP to get crip up before they blink away. After the blink they will either try to poly you or summon the water elemental. Either DT them to stop the poly or just to ensure they dont get away in the case shiv failed or missed or whatever. Another thing. If you use the CS opener start moving in the direction you know they will blink immediately, it will give you a severe head start in closing the gap. Most likely they will ice block your kidney shot, and if they have the water buddy out you should just kick it and wait. Try to gouge them just as you start to see the ice block fade, but good mages will probably blink away again. You will eat the first frost nova here probably, or pet freeze. Hopefully your snare resist kicks in, but it can't be relied on. Cloak this first attempt and get in range again. Most of my strat vs. mages at this point is trying to get them to blink again, and just simply mut'ing and eviscerating in between. If they do blink, ready your CB before the KS and drop your bomb ASAP. That's the best you're gonna do against a mage 1v1. Your only nova escapes are cloak, trinket, and vanish, so use them wisely and pray for root resists.

Vs. Warlocks: Pretty simple, save cloak for a crucial moment or in the event your hp starts dipping. Sometimes you can predict a death coil and sponge it, really making the lock look like a tool. Otherwise just play it like you would against any warlock, EA and mut often, stun/kick etc. Warlocks are easy for any spec rogue to kill.

Vs. Priests: Keep 5EA up all the time. Any good priest will remember to refresh inner fire constantly, so you need the extra penetration. Save your KS mutilate chain for when their shield falls. If you can catch them 5EA'd without their PW:S up, the priest will be extra squishy for those 6 seconds. Priests resist my stuns more than ANYONE though, so this is thrown entirely to the RNG winds. I'll usually poke at them with SND up to speed up the shield drop, then drop KS the moment I see white damage pop up. If they Pain Suppression you can either gouge to minimize their activity while bubbled, or blind them if they already used their trinket earlier. If the priest is somewhat stupid you can predict the fear and cloak it preemptively. Otherwise your trinket should be saved for a time where you have the priest in real danger, and can screw them over in that moment by breaking the fear. If you're undead, well GG. Most importantly, keep EA up, try to catch them with their guard down for the burst chain. Priests are extremely annoying but much easier to kill as Mutilate than Sstep.

Vs. Paladins: Fighting paladins is depressing as daggers. Seeing a double hand crit mutilate for 800 really makes you want to kick a puppy. Live with it. You can lock the paladin down if he's holy to the point of never getting a heal off. Mind Numbing may be better than wound in fact, but they also may try to spam dispel poisons off (kind of dumb). If you're savvy at predicting moves, cloak preemptively for a possible HOJ, or just trinket out of it when you have the upper hand. Save enough energy for kick/gouge so you can repeatedly keep their heals locked down. KS should be your last resort as an interrupt. They will get one bubble off AT LEAST, either vanish or just restealth somehow and reset the fight. Holy paladins won't hurt you severely or fast enough to kill you. Ret paladins you have a bit more leniency but fight them like you would an MS warrior, and trinket/cloak preemptively for Repentance and HOJ. A lucky crit from a retadin hurts so much, and you can die in one HOJ. Luckily you can kite from a greater range than you can a warrior. Focus on kiting when you're low on energy, keep EA up since they have no shield on, and drop mut bombs whenever you can. Save your CB chain for after the initial bubble, or if you catch them using AW, pop it then and there to eitehr force a trinket or to nullify some of their AW time.

Vs. Shamans: A macro to /tar Poison Cleansing Totem is handy. I usually hit it when I have them stunned or gouged and poke the offending totem. With a deep poison build this isn't necessary but getting stuck in an earthbind and having your crip drop every tick of the totem is extremely annoying. Not to mention they are probably spam de-poisoning themselves. Like paladins you have to play lockdown and gradually kill them. Don't energy starve yourself or they will catch opportunities to get a quick heal off. Killing the totem repeatedly makes them burn their mana somewhat fast and will make them constantly have to use GCD. Vs Enhance shamans just play as if they were ret paladins, without the CCs. Kite, burst, kite, burst, etc.

Vs. Druids: SOL, here. A feral druid will pretty much auto attack you to death. Fight them like warriors, and try to save your burst chain should they shift out of bear. Resto druids can kite you very easily. However, anticipate the shift. If you can drop them to about 50% without HOTs up you are in a window to finish them. Watch for teh shift and immediately KS, drop your bomb. If you fail at this or they trinket, you will probably have to repeat from the beginning once you finally catch up to them. You aren't really going to "lose" in a duel vs. a resto druid, since they won't really do enough damage to you to kill you. But basically my opinion is. If they're OOM before I win, then I lost.

Vs. Hunters: You have a few advantages here. While you lack mobility like Shs, you can keep the hunter in range indefinitely unless they are BM. Vs. BM hunters try to move around traps, especially frost is bad if you trip it. You can however maneuver around it. At the start, wait for them to flare a 2nd time and dont even worry about the opener, just jump right in and shiv a crip. In most cases they have no choice but to Wrath here and start running. Now here's the thing. They just blew flare, so you can sprint/vanish and reset the fight, they have no way to break you out. Just wait out the Wrath and restart the fight. Most importantly, DONT trip a frost trap, always maneuver around it if possible. Hunters with scatter shot have no way to get away from you really, but they also can force trip you into their traps. Whatever you do, keep crip up, trinket if they trinket to stay on them, and get it up immediately. In close range like that, the hunter has no way to win. I try to put a 5EA up quickly, since hunters take a decent hit from it. Note: Bad hunters will try to FREEZE trap. I just /lol and cloak through it.

Vs. Other Rogues: Now we're enterring the red zone. Congratulate every Shadowstep rogue you face before the duel begins on being a better duelling spec than you. Then /lol at the 400 rating difference between you and them on your own time. Anyway. Sstep rogue will more than likely catch you before you catch them. You can either play cheesy and use lots of +stealth detect and +stealth gear just for duelling other rogues, or bite the bullet and *try* to outplay them. This is heavily left up to the RNG though. If you get the jump, you definitely won. Open with CS, and drop a KS right after. If they trinket, you win. Blind them IMMEDIATELY and restart the fight. Sap after the blind to give KS time to come up again. Open again, CS > KS > Mut bomb > Rupture after the evis. 1 pt is fine. They are more than likely at < 15% hp if you vanilla chain without a Renataki. Throw a mut when possible, and reapply Rupture once CD procs, and then just kite. Congratulations, you just beat a terribad!

Now how it actually goes down is, I get sapped, CS'd (orc stun resist /pray), KS'd. Against sstep you might be able to pull off trinket/vanish immediately/CS them back and start your chain, unlikely though. Or, wait out bot the CS/KS and try to gouge. If you hit it, vanish and start your chain, and they will likely try to blind you to get away. Luckily you didn't blow your trinket here. Pop out and either blind them back, or rupture them when they go into "oh @*%@" mode as a response. It's very iffy at this point. You have to adapt quickly to the number game, and predict the rogue's moves.

For all intensive purposes, as rogue duels go, you have a severe disadvantage in DUELS vs. a rogue with sstep.

References: Sources, threads, other mumbo jumbo and theorycraft

Elitist Jerks rampages on about mutilate in raids.
http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t19583-rogue_mutilate_raid_dps_discussion/


Useful quotes about Mutilate from other posters in this thread

Dylari, regarding more PVE spec variations:

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Q u o t e:
These builds all assume it's post 2.4 and Imp Backstab is now Puncturing Wounds:
With some points in all poison talents:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?0053231053121025110513023050020050000000000000000000000000000000000

No points in Master Poisoner:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?0053231053221025010513023050020050000000000000000000000000000000000

Another build showing the (highly debatable) use of Imp Sinister Strike instead of Imp Gouge:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?0053231053121025110510233050020050000000000000000000000000000000000
(It is generally stated that all 3 of the top tier Combat talents are useless in a raid setting, therefore they're just filler. Some people laugh at a dagger build that includes Imp SS, and others with say that it's included for those times when you just can't get behind the mob. You can't Gouge a raid boss, and you can't use Deadly Poison with Gouge, so allocating points to Imp SS always made the most sense to me. Some people will put 5/5 Lightning Reflexes, and this is acceptable too. A little extra dodge can't hurt, but it doesn't really help anyways. If you're getting hit by a raid boss or even some trash, you're probably dead anyways.)

One more showing the best (IMO) allocation of poison talents now (pre-2.4):
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?0053201054321025110510233050020050000000000000000000000000000000000

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Request for sticky!!!!

Tagged for future read.

---------reserved

Wonder how well 2.4 mute will compare to combat daggers for PvE.

I just wish 2.4 would show up so i can have a 73% to crit with either hand >.>

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Q u o t e:

I just wish 2.4 would show up so i can have a 73% to crit with either hand >.>

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Where do you get 73% from?

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Q u o t e:


Where do you get 73% from?

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32% base percent + 15% = 47%.

100-37 - 53% = my chance to miss

(.53 * .53) = 27.56%

100-27.56% = 72.44% chance that one of my hands crits.
^_^

Trinekts for PVE:
Darkmoon Card: crusade since you're hitting a lot more, you stack the atk power bonus faster
Mark of Conquest could be a choice since you're hitting fast and striking with two daggers at a time, the healing effect might proc more often

btw, sticky please :P

i wish renataki's was a pvp reward =,(

It makes me sad in the pants b/c no way in hell will i ever get the ashtongue trinket.

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Q u o t e:


32% base percent + 15% = 47%.

100-37 - 53% = my chance to miss

(.53 * .53) = 27.56%

100-27.56% = 72.44% chance that one of my hands crits.
^_^

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Ah gotcha. I'm used to seeing the results after resilience. If you're talking PVE then yeah that's correct =P, PVP would be significantly lower.

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Q u o t e:
i wish renataki's was a pvp reward =,(

It makes me sad in the pants b/c no way in hell will i ever get the ashtongue trinket.

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I'm kind of saddened that every trinket is available to you on the tournament server free, but not renataki's.

Thanks for lettuce gnomes bliz!

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Q u o t e:
Trinekts for PVE:
Darkmoon Card: crusade since you're hitting a lot more, you stack the atk power bonus faster
Mark of Conquest could be a choice since you're hitting fast and striking with two daggers at a time, the healing effect might proc more often

btw, sticky please :P

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Added the darkmoon card, don't know how useful the MoC would be in PVE particularly. Maybe for farming. But we're talking raids here.