Reposted from http://www.tankspot.com/ -

I'm not sure how many more threads I can read on the WoW forums about the state of Protection Warriors. They all follow the same formats:

• Protection Warriors have been nerfed too much from their original status;
  
• Protection Warriors are no longer the ideal tanks since Druids and Paladins are better on everything but single target raid bosses;
  
• Protection Warriors have no way to hold multiple mobs except with thunderclap and cleave;
  
• Protection Warriors lose too much rage when they overgear an instance to be viable.

I'd like some improvements to the class. Making suggestions for class improvement is different than complaining about the state of the class.


Protection Warriors Have Been Nerfed
This is the most aggravating claim. It's simply not true. Having played a Warrior since release, there was a time when playing a Protection Warrior was painful... to tank with.

For those newer to the class, here's an outline of what you've missed:

• Our original 31 point talent increased block value for 20 seconds. That was our 31 point talent, which means Shield Slam and gear with block value didn't exist. The ability was worthless.
  
• Until the time leading up to Blackwing Lair, people would argue that Mortal Strike builds were the best for raid main tanks... and they'd be right.
  
• Our original raiding and pre-raiding gear had almost even mixes of Agility and Strength, but relatively little Defense and Stamina. The best shoulders in the game for almost one year from release had Spirit on them.
  
• When Shield Slam released, it didn't scale, adding to a series of abilities that didn't. If you wanted better Threat, you stacked Strength and used a fast weapon.
  
• Thunderclap was -- just one year ago -- only usable in Battle Stance. It was only viable in the highest rage-intake environments, which were also the environments that could kill you if you stance switched at an inopportune time.
  
• Prior to Devastate, if you wanted to grind as Protection, you respeced or rerolled. Legitimate arguments could be made that Devastate, a 41-point ability, wasn't always better than Sunder Armor for tanking.

There are a wide range of buffs we've received as well. Expertise is one of the most recent, as is the Revenge damage modifier. Taunt no longer using Spell Hit was one of the best, though it wasn't so pronounced for guilds that didn't spend some time stuck on Four Horsemen.

Protection Warriors are the most consistently buffed class/spec combination since release.


Protection Warriors Only Good For Single Target Raid Bosses
Because Druids and Paladins can do everything else better, right? Feral Druids and Protection Paladins take a certain amount of pride in what they can accomplish and do. They also are more interested in their class, and, like Warriors, often do not have a solid understanding of how other classes work. When they say Warriors are inferior tanks, then give a laundry list of reasons, they usually have some axe to grind.

The definition of 'true' is always elusive in these threads. For example, it's not 'true' AOE Threat if there aren't 8+ mobs in a highly unrealistic situation. It's not 'true' scaling Threat if it's not some arcane mixture of stacking modifiers that could only apply to 2.1 Feral Druids.

The truth is, no serious party will ever say, "we don't want you, you're a Protection Warrior." No serious raid will ever say, "we aren't looking for a Protection Warrior to Main Tank." It's just not going to happen without a fundamental change to the game. I know one of you is thinking about posting, "I know this Gruul guild on my server that refuses to let their Warrior MT" ... yeah, that's probably part of why they're a Gruul guild.

The worst part about this claim is that it gives Warriors an excuse for underperforming. Invariably, Warriors who post this have not learned how to excel at tanking, have not learned how to control multiple mobs, and have found a perfect line to say, "I'm bad, but it's Blizzard's fault."


Protection Warriors Can't Hold Multiple Mobs
I learned to control AOE situations in Upper Blackrock Spire. I used the same skills I learned there for three years, and am still using them. While I appreciate and use Thunderclap and Cleave, I have never needed them to maintain solid control of a situation with 5+ mobs. There are some people on the WoW forums who consider this heresy, because it flies in the face of their I'm-the-victim complex.

I have always refused to run parties and raids with idiots. By that, I mean people who make no effort to work with the group, and will do the minimum amount of work necessary to get the gear. I also have zero respect for the argument that other classes are better because they can handle idiots better -- if you're voluntarily running PUGs with people who can't control their targets, that's your fault.

Here's what Warriors can do to improve:

• Pull faster. Healers don't need full mana bars. Casters don't need to be babied through DPS targets. You'll become better, they'll become better. As Maddfez puts it, "Large groups of unmarked mobs that are coming whether you're ready or not do wonders for people's ability to react on the fly." As Kaganda related our old runs, "Your speed runs pushed my Hunter's trapping abilities to the max, but I could chain trap a mob 4-5 times if needed. Everyone who went through those runs came out a better player, or they quit halfway through."
  
• Tab target. Understanding tab targeting will give you substantially more control over complex pulls. Tabbing through targets will cycle mobs in a 90 degree cone in your line of sight, and will cycle through melee-range targets before ranged targets. Slight twitches in your angle allows you to control the situation much better -- often, I'll put myself in a position where I target the first and second DPS target for the first 10 seconds, then alter my position to mix in the rest.
  
• Use Taunt. Taunt locks your target on you for three seconds. After a few seconds on your main target at the beginning of a pull, Taunt your target and switch to another target to lay down a Devastate or Shield Slam, then switch back. Taunt buys you the full cooldown without any risk of losing the target.
  
• Let party members take the right hits. Many caster mobs never need to be tanked or CC'd in 5-mans. Steamvault Sirens are a good example of this -- tanking them is unnecessary, and by virtue of moving into melee range of one, she uses her fear. Since you're only reducing spell damage by 10-16%, you're not exactly a mile ahead of cloth-wearers in these situations. Let the DPS kill the primary caster target first while you focus on aggro on the rest of the pull.
  
• Mark targets yourself. Aside from the added value of being party leader and being able to kick terrible Warlocks and Hunters, the method in which you mark targets is important. It's fine to mark a few targets before a pull in parties, but make sure your party is aware that you are setting new targets during the pull. As the tank in a party, you should grow keenly aware of what targets you have built Threat on and which you haven't. More importantly, setting targets dynamically and acting as the main assist allows you to fluidly control adds, either from patrols or from mispulled groups.
  
• Recover from mispulls. Never, ever give up on a bad pull. Who cares if you got a second group? In conjunction with this, anyone who runs away to avoid repair bills on a mispull is kicked. The best memories you'll have will always be about the times something went wrong and you recovered, never about the times everything went right. You'd be amazed the things you can pull through: one of my best memories is from the Rend event in UBRS, where a player pulled the entire balcony to us during the event by not jumping down fast enough; we survived, without a 40-man raid item among us.
  
• Break CC... and smile about it. If you'll be tanking something in the next 5-10 seconds, get it out of crowd control with a Taunt and Shield Slam. If there are only a few mobs and you want more rage, break crowd control. If you don't need CC at all... don't use it.

Warriors should not be in Heroic Shattered Halls before having learned how to control multiple mobs. Not learning the skill is different from not having the potential. Warriors can handle large groups.


Protection Warriors Can't Tank What They Overgear
It's true that rage reduction occurs by virtue of outgearing an instance, and it's true that it should be a priority for improvement on Blizzard's part. However, it's not true that Warriors are suddenly impotent if they outgear an instance. In T6 quality tanking gear I can tank non-Heroic 5-mans for parties with no problems. If I'm helping a friend out, there's no stage of the game where gear hinders me.

What I can't effectively do is tank a non-Heroic 5-man in full tanking gear with other T6 raiders; then again, why would I need to, if I can do the same thing by swapping to DPS gear and providing more utility?

This is a problem of hyperbole. It's still a problem, but it's not quite gamebreaking.

Yes.

I'm a warrior and I approve this message.

<3 Cider

A very nice read.

Pretty much.

Good points all around. I haven't mentioned some of what you said because I thought it was self evident, or some were just not something I felt needed to be told (I expect a certain level of competency)

Nice to know you slap on the dps gear when you tank dungeons you are overgeared for =)

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Q u o t e:

Protection Warriors have no way to hold multiple mobs except with thunderclap and cleave;

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Perhaps you should get on with the time. With the current version of TC I don't think anyone except a few bad warriors is complaining about holding 4-5 moderately hard hitting mobs from healing aggro. The complaint is for 6+ mobs and/or situations where it's inefficient to kill them one by one.

We aren't asking to be on par with paladins, but the disparity is too large. And yes, druids need to be buffed in this regard, too.

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Q u o t e:
Yes.

I'm a warrior and I approve this message.

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Q u o t e:

Perhaps you should get on with the time. With the current version of TC I don't think anyone except a few bad warriors is complaining about holding 4-5 moderately hard hitting mobs from healing aggro. The complaint is for 6+ mobs and/or situations where it's inefficient to kill them one by one.

We aren't asking to be on par with paladins, but the disparity is too large. And yes, druids need to be buffed in this regard, too.

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First page, "Warrior Talent Tree Improvements":
Thunderclap – Needs to produce a high amount of threat.

Took me all of 30 seconds to find someone complaining about it


So feel free to tell everyone about all those situations in the live game where a) there are 6+ mobs in a 5-man AOE pull and b) by virtue of the Warrior not holding every single one of them during AOE, the party is in serious danger of wiping.

I haven't come across that mythical situation. Those big pulls that are designed for AOE have mobs that hit for nothing on cloth. They are also uncommon. The pulls where the mobs hit for substantial damage aren't designed for AOE.

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Q u o t e:
Yes.

I'm a warrior and I approve this message.

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Q u o t e:


First page, "Warrior Talent Tree Improvements":
Thunderclap – Needs to produce a high amount of threat.

Took me all of 30 seconds to find someone complaining about it


So feel free to tell everyone about all those situations in the live game where a) there are 6+ mobs in a 5-man AOE pull and b) by virtue of the Warrior not holding every single one of them during AOE, the party is in serious danger of wiping.

I haven't come across that mythical situation. Those big pulls that are designed for AOE have mobs that hit for nothing on cloth. They are also uncommon. The pulls where the mobs hit for substantial damage aren't designed for AOE.

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Perhaps the guy asked for more threat on TC not to help with holding aggro from healing but with some limited AoE damage?

There probably isn't an encounter where a paladin tanking is absolutely required. But there are quite many where true AoE tanking makes a huge difference. Note that I used the word inefficient, not impossible.

Why are you against the idea of buffing warrior AoE tanking, anyway?

I wonder why their so many spec's out there to do certain things like mutli mob tanking being 8/12/41

This message is good. Spread the word!

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Q u o t e:
Pull faster. Healers don't need full mana bars. Casters don't need to be babied through DPS targets. You'll become better, they'll become better. As Maddfez puts it, "Large groups of unmarked mobs that are coming whether you're ready or not do wonders for people's ability to react on the fly." As Kaganda related our old runs, "Your speed runs pushed my Hunter's trapping abilities to the max, but I could chain trap a mob 4-5 times if needed. Everyone who went through those runs came out a better player, or they quit halfway through."

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This is my #1 problem with pugs. I can't even count the number of times I've gotten attitude from someone for pulling when a healer was at 90% mana and drinking. I will not die instantly if the priest cannot immediately spam heals, guys. Ugh.

As always Cider you take the words right out of my mouth.

Especially since the recent "Free expertise" and how they made devastate a better threat ability and useful in soloing, I have nearly no complaints as a prot warrior. While I wasn't prot till 41 point talents came out ( i was 5/31/15 fury/prot), I've been prot since and I think it has come a long way since TBC and is a very well balanced spec.

Almost none of the "tanking issues" that i can think of can't be corrected with the group adjusting their play. Tanking 4-6 mobs? Cool. Thunderclap and tab devastate/shieldslam and have the group follow an assist chain. Lack of rage? Dont use shieldblock or heroic strike. I've been able to hold agro in *normal* 5mans in t5 epics that i completely block the attacks for. It's all about using your rage efficiently.

As a solo spec, protection is amazing right now. With a good set of fury gear, or even in mixed dps gear with SBV pieces thrown in and wearing a shield, theres not much i cant solo that any normal person could solo. When i still had herbalism i was able to solo the elite trees in skettis without taking more then 300 damage. In a raid setting, tho threat is a little bit of an issue, prot dps easily holds its own. Dpsing on a fight like Tidewalker (which dps threat could be an issue on anyways), ive been able to put out close to 70-80% of the dps a rogue does, without being in a melee group. Granted if i was 17/44 fury, id probably top the charts in my dps gear, but doing respectable damage as pure tank spec is fine by me. The *only* thing id see changed about it would be to remove the threat bonus of Devastate and heroic strike in the dps stances.

And Cider, keep up the great work. You are a well respected member of our warrior community and I'm glad you're around in the midst of the "L2MS nubz". You keep writing, and we'll keep reading.

~Galushi

P.s. you're ~12k shield slam blows my f'ing mind!

Honestly if they just removed the target cap on thunderclap and made rage from damage a static gain, then I'd have 0 issues with my warrior tanking.

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Q u o t e:
Honestly if they just removed the target cap on thunderclap and made rage from damage a static gain, then I'd have 0 issues with my warrior tanking.

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You shouldn't have a problem with tanking at all, unless there are 5+ mobs with absolutely 0 cc, other than that...should be easy.

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Q u o t e:

Perhaps the guy asked for more threat on TC not to help with holding aggro from healing but with some limited AoE damage?

There probably isn't an encounter where a paladin tanking is absolutely required. But there are quite many where true AoE tanking makes a huge difference. Note that I used the word inefficient, not impossible.

Why are you against the idea of buffing warrior AoE tanking, anyway?

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That was me.

It was more about helping us keep aggro when we have an idiot DPS'er who doesnt know what a threat meter is and is just spamming at targets whilst were tabbing like mad between 3 or more targets trying to build up our rage and threat on them. Its also more for those "Oh @#@#" moments when things go wrong. Not everyone has the commitment to learn how to be a better tank and others in our groups dont have the understanding how rage and threat generation works for warriors, they are just there trying to win on the damage meter which can sometimes make it harder for a tank to keep them, and by extension, the rest of the group alive and no I dont think its fair to kick a person because they are nub otherwise they wont learn how it all works until after you explain it to them.

thank you god. i was starting to loose hope that sane warriors still played wow. by the way sexy sowrd cider i mean wow thats a nice sowrd. WOW