---

Q u o t e:
A multi-target medium threat move would be very useful even if it doesn't generate wonderful threat/rage on single targets.

---

Disregarding the rest of your post as I don't think many are going to take it too seriously, there is a flaw you might not be aware of with this. Protection Warriors are somewhat unique in that we completely control our environment in terms of focus. Unlike other Warriors and other classes, none of our core abilities apply DOT damage, none of our abilities apply an involuntary stun (unless you talent into Revenge), and none of our abilities are multi-target damage.

What this means is that complex pulls are handled well. When something gets polymorphed or shackled, the Warrior can instantly stop attacking it without worrying that Deep Wounds are going to break it. All of our high-threat abilities specifically apply to a single target.

If you gave us a core ability which affected multiple targets, you'd find that it's a core ability we wouldn't use. It'd have to have some pretty interesting dynamics to it, such as not breaking crowd control. Also, on more complex pulls, you wouldn't want something applying threat to a target you are on because it may prevent a Hunter or Warrior from ranged-pulling it.

I don't think Protection would benefit from any 41-point talent that didn't a) increase single target threat or b) increase damage mitigation. It just so happens Blizzard went with a threat ability, not a damage mitigation ability.

You must have seen the mage 41 talent points to understand how much worse you could be getting. I'm not of any opinion on whether devastate is a good or not. I have read posts however that have made me a little worried about actual effectiveness of the 41 pt talent.

If I wasn't losing 20% passive agro reduction, I probably wouldn't be as worried, but Thaddius is hard enough right now for me even if I'm lucky enough to get a shaman. Lucky me, ignite was nerfed ... Huzzah. Still, I'm worried.

I do like that devastate does damage because now it can activate TF procs while refreshing sunder. I just think that since Sunder's threat / rage is low enough that to make a believer out of folks, a comparison intended to show the usefulness of this talent would be of Revenge/Shield Slam <-> Devastate.

Spam talents are nice and on boss fights where rage isn't hard to come by, it's especially nice. I just hope it scales with damage more so than it scales with the number of sunders applied.

Someone really does need to do a test on Beta servers about the actual threat Devastate does.

Edit:sp

---

Q u o t e:
This conversation is about the validity of it FOR TANKING. That means threat. Any more threat than sunder armor, which is a very bread and butter threat ability, is very nice. A talent that does GOOD damage AND solid threat, that is just awesome.

Anyways, keep in mind, that in a 40 man raid, a tanks damage isn't that big of an issue, however, there is a sizable portion of the population that doesnt' ever do 40's. Come expansion, there will be alot more 5 and 10 man content. In a 5 man, a full protection spec warriors damage could be VERY important.

---

Even in 40 mans, it provides full-prot offtanks with the opportunity to feel substantially less pointless. Some people think it's a cushy role, and others have the attitude that they're falling on their own sword by speccing prot, then being slapped in the face by not being allowed to be THE tank. And conversely, some MTs get very defensive when you rotate them out to give other people opportunity to learn.

I am currently reluctant to advise my warriors to spec prot, especially if they're undergeared, because it's such a sacrifice to DPS for someone who's not going to be tanking anything serious for a few months. With this skill in place, it won't bother me so much anymore.

It also fills in several gaps in a protection warrior's non-tanking viabiilty. The boost to DPS when soloing seems quite substantial, as long as you're targeting elites, and it seems to be pretty nice in PVP.

I know there aren't a lot of multi target tanking situations in raids right now. However I think with smaller raid caps, and especially in 10 man raids, it might be quite useful. Reducing the number of slots for prot warriors in BC should force new practices beyond just making hybrids off tank more.

I suppose it would be extremely nice in 5 man groups as well. Not every pull gets CC'd the way we'd like it.

Cider, great write up!

I wish you played a feral druid.


Remove the QQ'ing bit from the title and this is a stickie.

---

Q u o t e:
Colds,

Your argument, as I understand it, is that the 3 rage you save over Devastate by using Improved Sunder Armor, when saved over multiple applications, will allow a Heroic Strike -- making the same rage spent produce more threat than Devastate.

To this point, I think your argument is fair. I misunderstood part of it earlier (I'm not terribly good at math concepts, but I always acknowledge that). I also made an error in including an extra Shield Slam both in your math and in mine in the original post; this has no impact whatsoever as it the same rage efficiency is increased across the board. Also, let me rework what I am doing to match your cycle -- I will never skip a Sunder Armor or Devastate for a Revenge (essentially putting Revenge on a 6-second timer due to global cooldown). This will make my original post as well as my response here more accurate to actual in-game usage.

Also, rage efficiency is important. As said repeatedly through this post, my personal assumption is that tanks should be able to use rage-inefficient methods in a tanking environment, as damage incoming and talents should a tank to push the envelope. However, I did make two separate lists, one that is for rage-efficiency (the first, where slower weapons are better) and one that is for rage inefficiency (the second, "ultimate" list, that assumes infinite rage). Given that I've made a couple mistakes in math, if it turns out that Improved Sunder Armor is more efficient in a limited rage environment, I will correct that in the original post.

As far as Devastate adding more threat-per-Sunder, I agree with that. and say as much in the original post. It would be great if Blizzard added additional threat as the tooltip describes; this does not in itself negate the fact that Devastate is still an improvement.


Now, redoing some of the math:

((2 * 1(Revenge)) + (17 * 1(Shield Slam)) + (12 x 2(Devastate))) / 6 = 7.16
((2 * 1(Revenge)) + (17 * 1(Shield Slam)) + (9 x 2(Improved Sunder Armor))) / 6 = 6.16

1 rage-per-second additional, 1 new Heroic Strike every 12 seconds.

Per the point on Glancing Blows, from my understanding, 40% of my attacks will do 30% less damage. This means, on average, I will do 12% less damage with white damage

Castigator Damage:
395 * 1.16 * 0.8 = 366.56 * 0.88 = 322.57

Next, let's add in the new normalized rage gain from the weapon being a normal hit instead of a Heroic Strike. First, the values:

Main Hand Normal Hits: Factor=2.5
Rage Conversion at level 60: 230.6
((Damage Dealt) / (Rage Conversion at Your Level) * 7.5 + (Weapon Speed * Factor))/2

or,
((322.57) / (230.6) * 7.5 + (2.6 * 2.5)) / 2
((322.57) / (230.6) * 7.5 + (6.5)) / 2 = 8.49 Rage Gained

What does this mean? If you are using Devastate instead of Improved Sunder Armor/Heroic Strike, every hit that would have been a Heroic Strike will give you 8.49 rage. Let's round this down to 8 rage per hit.

Now, 8 rage gained every 12 seconds from your normal melee damage adds up. Since we're on a 12 second cycle where a Heroic is being used instead of normal hit, then at the 24 second marker we would have 16 rage, and at the 36 second marker we would have 24 rage. This means that for every 3 Heroic Strikes missed, we would have enough rage built up from white damage for two Heroic Strikes. For 5 cycles, we would have 2 Heroic Strikes even using Devastate instead of Heroic/Improved Sunder. In other words, on top of the Devastates, you will also have 40% of the Heroic Strike efficiency.


The next part of setting up the groundwork for a final calculation on the threat difference between the two is dealing with Glancing Blows. Let's agree that all attacks taking place -- except for the Heroic or Normal hit on the 12th second marker -- are normal attacks and will have no impact on either rotation. Only the 12th second attack will be modified, and we will add the difference of threat an average Glancing Blow will have directly onto the Heroic Strike threat.

Base Heroic Strike Values per Application (including Armor and Crit modifiers)
TPA: 319.44
DPA: 144.44

Castigator Damage: 366.56 (Non-glancing)
Difference: 366.56 * 0.12 = 43.98

Adding the difference to the Heroic value, as it will not glance:
TPA: 363.42
DPA: 188.42

Applying these at 12 second intervals would give the following TPS and DPS:
363.42 / 12 = 30.28
118.42 / 12 = 15.7

Also, because we will be using 2/5ths, or 40% of the same number of Heroic Strikes using Devastate instead:

30.28 * 0.4 = 12.11
15.7 * 0.4 = 6.28



DEVASTATE
Devastate Threat: 346 * 4 = 1384 / 12 = 115.33 TPS
Heroic Strike Threat: 12.11
Devastate Damage: 299 * 4 = 1196 / 12 = 99.66
Heroic Strike Damage: 6.28

SUNDER ARMOR
Sunder Armor Threat: 260 * 4 = 1056 / 12 = 88 TPS
Heroic Strike Threat: 30.28
Sunder Armor Damage: 0 DPS
Heroic Strike Damage: 15.7

Totals:
DEVASTATE
TPS: 127.44
DPS: 105.94

IMP SUNDER ARMOR & HEROIC STRIKE
TPS: 118.28
DPS: 15.7

You asked for more accurate numbers. You gave some fair guidelines regarding glancing blows and cooldowns, and I corrected those.

Devastate now has a larger disparity in it's favor. This is with the most basic values for a Warrior; it scales. Putting 1 talent point here is more efficient than putting 3 into Improved Sunder Armor.

Faster weapons will be better suited to Improved Sunder with limited rage. I agree with that, absolutely, but there was never any argument there. In limited rage situations, it's specifically recommended Warriors get slow weapons. Fast weapons, however, are innately designed for repeated applications of Heroic Strike, and in the situations you want them you should not be making decisions between Heroic Strike and another ability; you will use both simultaneously.

As a reminder, I'm not a math major. I'm more than happy to correct incorrect values or equations, and I do believe there it is a possibility I am wrong in parts of this and have made mistakes along the line.

---

You used Heroic Strike cost as 12 rage, while with proper talents it will be 9. Furthermore, if I were to use Heroic Strike, I would prefer to use fast weapon, which means I will generate less rage on that skipped hit, let's say 5. This is already a difference of 6 rage every 12 seconds.

Ok, now. Instead of trying to think about saved up Heroic Strikes from rage lost due to using Heroic instead of normal hit, we can simply incorporate that cost into the overall cost of the Heroic Strike. It comes out to 14 rage per Heroic (9 base + 5 lost).

So we need to save up 14 rage to use Heroic Strike to keep even with rage levels of Devastate cycle. Let's take 7 cycles so as to keep whole cycles, which will take 7*6 sec = 42 seconds which gives 42 rage, or 3 extra Heroic Strikes.

Just like in your equation, there is no need to list Shield Slam or Revenge, so we can just compare Devastate vs SA + Heroic Strike. Let's use Widow's Remorse as our Weapon for Sunder cycle = 218.6 base damage after mitigation/crit, which gives us additional 26.23 damage since it will not glance.

Devastate Threat: 346 * 4 = 1384 / 12 = 115.33 TPS

Sunder Armor Threat: 260 * 4 = 1056 / 12 = 88 TPS
Heroic Strike Threat per hit: 319.44 BASE + 26.23 HIT = 345.67
Heroic Strike Threat: 345.67 / 14 sec = 24.69 TPS
Total Sunder Armor Threat: 88 TPS + 24.69 TPS = 112.69 TPS

So yes, at a certain point Devastate does outpace Sunder Spam at certain point (that point being pretty close to the conditions used in the calculations), if for no other reason than the fact that it scales. But you have to use a slow weapon, and only in situations where you have more than enough rage after all your instant attacks. Still, it has uses, and that's a good thing.

Sadly, in Beta, most instances are 5-man and 10-man, so it is understandable when most people find no use for it in those situations.

I do have one question however - more towards Blizzard. If it really is meant to be used in raiding, why doesn't it scale anywhere near that the rate of other classes DPS? It is upsetting that a 41 point talent could have been finally to give Warriors such ability, yet it did not.

---

Q u o t e:


You used Heroic Strike cost as 12 rage, while with proper talents it will be 9. Furthermore, if I were to use Heroic Strike, I would prefer to use fast weapon, which means I will generate less rage on that skipped hit, let's say 5. This is already a difference of 6 rage every 12 seconds.

Ok, now. Instead of trying to think about saved up Heroic Strikes from rage lost due to using Heroic instead of normal hit, we can simply incorporate that cost into the overall cost of the Heroic Strike. It comes out to 14 rage per Heroic (9 base + 5 lost).

So we need to save up 14 rage to use Heroic Strike to keep even with rage levels of Devastate cycle. Let's take 7 cycles so as to keep whole cycles, which will take 7*6 sec = 42 seconds which gives 42 rage, or 3 extra Heroic Strikes.

Just like in your equation, there is no need to list Shield Slam or Revenge, so we can just compare Devastate vs SA + Heroic Strike. Let's use Widow's Remorse as our Weapon for Sunder cycle = 218.6 base damage after mitigation/crit, which gives us additional 26.23 damage since it will not glance.

Devastate Threat: 346 * 4 = 1384 / 12 = 115.33 TPS

Sunder Armor Threat: 260 * 4 = 1056 / 12 = 88 TPS
Heroic Strike Threat per hit: 319.44 BASE + 26.23 HIT = 345.67
Heroic Strike Threat: 345.67 / 14 sec = 24.69 TPS
Total Sunder Armor Threat: 88 TPS + 24.69 TPS = 112.69 TPS

So yes, at a certain point Devastate does outpace Sunder Spam at certain point (that point being pretty close to the conditions used in the calculations), if for no other reason than the fact that it scales. But you have to use a slow weapon, and only in situations where you have more than enough rage after all your instant attacks. Still, it has uses, and that's a good thing.

Sadly, in Beta, most instances are 5-man and 10-man, so it is understandable when most people find no use for it in those situations.

I do have one question however - more towards Blizzard. If it really is meant to be used in raiding, why doesn't it scale anywhere near that the rate of other classes DPS? It is upsetting that a 41 point talent could have been finally to give Warriors such ability, yet it did not.

---

With this said, I apologize for the fairly rough beginning to it. I'm going to go ahead and update that Improved Sunder will be better used with faster weapons while not main-tanking.

When I first went through this, I assumed that the Warrior wouldn't want 3 points into Heroic Strike, as at level 60 that'd be very hard to actually achieve.

However, after running the math, I think I'm going to wind up with a build similar to this:
http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/bc-warrior/talents.html?350000000000000000000000000000000000000000000155511033000103501351

Focused Rage, Improved Heroic, Improved Sunder, Devastate. All four, and in the situations where Improved Sunder is more efficient I will be using it. I want both talents already, as Improved Sunder Armor is just better if my rage intake is not high enough to use Devastate in the first place. Also, I have skipped Improved Defensive Stance, as spell damage currently does not make up a large percentage of my damage intake in Naxxramas.

As far as Beta is concerned, you've seen more of it than me, but I use Devastate strictly for solo grinding; it's next to worthless in the bulk of 5-mans with well-geared DPS'ers, as you never have time to put enough Sunders up in the first place.


In response to your final comment. I agree, the ability itself would be better if it scaled more, or if our ability scaled more. From what I've seen, I've been fairly hopeful that our gear itself will scale very well. I also agree, it is odd that it's not providing more threat-per-sunder, but the reason I'm not worried about that as much is because static threat additions don't scale; I would prefer that the portion of Devastate affected by Attack Power was more prominent instead (as we'll be using it for both Devastate and Shield Slam).

I'm not following your math. Why does 42 seconds give 42 rage?

If you are trying to compare the extra HS's that would be possible from the rage saved by using Imp Sunder vs. Devastate, try looking at it this way:

1 Imp HS costs 14 rage (given)
Thus, every 5 Imp Sunders will save you 15 rage, allowing you to apply 1 Imp HS that would wouldn't use if you had instead performed 5 Devastates. Thus, with Widow's Remorse, that HS will provide 345.67 extra threat. Therefore, for Imp Sunder Spam to come out ahead of Devastate spam, the difference in threat generated by 5 Sunders vs. 5 Devastates would have to be less than 345.67. In other words:

345.67 > 5*D - 5*260, where D = the threat generated by each Devastate. Solving for D, we find that each Devastate would have to produce > 329 threat for Imp Sunder spam to produce more total threat over a sufficient time period with "infinite" rage. With normalization, and 1200AP/15% crit, Widow's Remose does ~303 threat per devastate.

So this is a really complicated way of saying what Cider said... with fast weapons, Imp Sunder spam does hold a threat advantage to Devastate spam. However, it gets complicated when you start scaling this analysis to other weapon speeds/DPSes, since the effective rage cost of HS will go up with higher damaging weapons, as will, of course, the threat output of Devastate. Thus, scaling to higher damages will quickly push the balance back towards favoring Devastate spam.

Some other things to take into account also: Def Stance and Defiance increase threat buy a percentage, so if Devastate does more threat than Sunder already, it will gain even more from the % increase of those two skills. Of couse the Threat from Devastate will be lowered due to the lower damage done in Def Stance also, so it might still balance out.

Curplop, the only point on that is that while you do 10% less damage in Defensive, you also do 10% more damage with One-Handed Specialization, so it evens out.

Bump for great justice. This thing needs to be on the front page.

Interesting read.

Any chance you could do the numbers for Quel'Serrar and Brutality Blade? It seems BB would be an interesting option given the +9 Str/+9 Agi, 2.5 speed and 1% crit bonuses. I also have Deathbringer, but I'm not sure it would be worthy of a tanking weapon.

Awesome work. Thanks. Did a 3 man BRD last night (Yeah, we were bored) and I was trying devastate out. Seemed to work out well for me (was able to hold against the full shadow spec priest), but then I came here and saw a bunch of "Devastate sucks" posts and wondered what was up. Great to see some numbers to back it up.

Devastate is a redundant ability, you have sunder if you need, you can easily hold threat with heroic strike with tanking, even better with focused rage. A 41 point talent should shine. This one is doesnt.

According to KLHTM my sunders have been producing 50 more threat than devastate on average. I'm not sure if this is a bug w/ klhtm or if it is the actual case. I'm using thunderfury. Has anyone else had similar results?

I'll bump this