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Q u o t e:
even though Devastate scales, it still scales poorly.

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I have to agree with Colds here. At least we have a scaling spammable aggro ability now, but it's still nowhere near the scalability that druids have.

Colds,

Your argument, as I understand it, is that the 3 rage you save over Devastate by using Improved Sunder Armor, when saved over multiple applications, will allow a Heroic Strike -- making the same rage spent produce more threat than Devastate.

To this point, I think your argument is fair. I misunderstood part of it earlier (I'm not terribly good at math concepts, but I always acknowledge that). I also made an error in including an extra Shield Slam both in your math and in mine in the original post; this has no impact whatsoever as it the same rage efficiency is increased across the board. Also, let me rework what I am doing to match your cycle -- I will never skip a Sunder Armor or Devastate for a Revenge (essentially putting Revenge on a 6-second timer due to global cooldown). This will make my original post as well as my response here more accurate to actual in-game usage.

Also, rage efficiency is important. As said repeatedly through this post, my personal assumption is that tanks should be able to use rage-inefficient methods in a tanking environment, as damage incoming and talents should a tank to push the envelope. However, I did make two separate lists, one that is for rage-efficiency (the first, where slower weapons are better) and one that is for rage inefficiency (the second, "ultimate" list, that assumes infinite rage). Given that I've made a couple mistakes in math, if it turns out that Improved Sunder Armor is more efficient in a limited rage environment, I will correct that in the original post.

As far as Devastate adding more threat-per-Sunder, I agree with that. and say as much in the original post. It would be great if Blizzard added additional threat as the tooltip describes; this does not in itself negate the fact that Devastate is still an improvement.


Now, redoing some of the math:

((2 * 1(Revenge)) + (17 * 1(Shield Slam)) + (12 x 2(Devastate))) / 6 = 7.16
((2 * 1(Revenge)) + (17 * 1(Shield Slam)) + (9 x 2(Improved Sunder Armor))) / 6 = 6.16

1 rage-per-second additional, 1 new Heroic Strike every 12 seconds.

Per the point on Glancing Blows, from my understanding, 40% of my attacks will do 30% less damage. This means, on average, I will do 12% less damage with white damage

Castigator Damage:
395 * 1.16 * 0.8 = 366.56 * 0.88 = 322.57

Next, let's add in the new normalized rage gain from the weapon being a normal hit instead of a Heroic Strike. First, the values:

Main Hand Normal Hits: Factor=2.5
Rage Conversion at level 60: 230.6
((Damage Dealt) / (Rage Conversion at Your Level) * 7.5 + (Weapon Speed * Factor))/2

or,
((322.57) / (230.6) * 7.5 + (2.6 * 2.5)) / 2
((322.57) / (230.6) * 7.5 + (6.5)) / 2 = 8.49 Rage Gained

What does this mean? If you are using Devastate instead of Improved Sunder Armor/Heroic Strike, every hit that would have been a Heroic Strike will give you 8.49 rage. Let's round this down to 8 rage per hit.

Now, 8 rage gained every 12 seconds from your normal melee damage adds up. Since we're on a 12 second cycle where a Heroic is being used instead of normal hit, then at the 24 second marker we would have 16 rage, and at the 36 second marker we would have 24 rage. This means that for every 3 Heroic Strikes missed, we would have enough rage built up from white damage for two Heroic Strikes. For 5 cycles, we would have 2 Heroic Strikes even using Devastate instead of Heroic/Improved Sunder. In other words, on top of the Devastates, you will also have 40% of the Heroic Strike efficiency.


The next part of setting up the groundwork for a final calculation on the threat difference between the two is dealing with Glancing Blows. Let's agree that all attacks taking place -- except for the Heroic or Normal hit on the 12th second marker -- are normal attacks and will have no impact on either rotation. Only the 12th second attack will be modified, and we will add the difference of threat an average Glancing Blow will have directly onto the Heroic Strike threat.

Base Heroic Strike Values per Application (including Armor and Crit modifiers)
TPA: 319.44
DPA: 144.44

Castigator Damage: 366.56 (Non-glancing)
Difference: 366.56 * 0.12 = 43.98

Adding the difference to the Heroic value, as it will not glance:
TPA: 363.42
DPA: 188.42

Applying these at 12 second intervals would give the following TPS and DPS:
363.42 / 12 = 30.28
118.42 / 12 = 15.7

Also, because we will be using 2/5ths, or 40% of the same number of Heroic Strikes using Devastate instead:

30.28 * 0.4 = 12.11
15.7 * 0.4 = 6.28



DEVASTATE
Devastate Threat: 346 * 4 = 1384 / 12 = 115.33 TPS
Heroic Strike Threat: 12.11
Devastate Damage: 299 * 4 = 1196 / 12 = 99.66
Heroic Strike Damage: 6.28

SUNDER ARMOR
Sunder Armor Threat: 260 * 4 = 1056 / 12 = 88 TPS
Heroic Strike Threat: 30.28
Sunder Armor Damage: 0 DPS
Heroic Strike Damage: 15.7

Totals:
DEVASTATE
TPS: 127.44
DPS: 105.94

IMP SUNDER ARMOR & HEROIC STRIKE
TPS: 118.28
DPS: 15.7

You asked for more accurate numbers. You gave some fair guidelines regarding glancing blows and cooldowns, and I corrected those.

Devastate now has a larger disparity in it's favor. This is with the most basic values for a Warrior; it scales. Putting 1 talent point here is more efficient than putting 3 into Improved Sunder Armor.

Faster weapons will be better suited to Improved Sunder with limited rage. I agree with that, absolutely, but there was never any argument there. In limited rage situations, it's specifically recommended Warriors get slow weapons. Fast weapons, however, are innately designed for repeated applications of Heroic Strike, and in the situations you want them you should not be making decisions between Heroic Strike and another ability; you will use both simultaneously.

As a reminder, I'm not a math major. I'm more than happy to correct incorrect values or equations, and I do believe there it is a possibility I am wrong in parts of this and have made mistakes along the line.

I have a few questions here, does focused rage apply to sunder?

Next, does defiance apply to sunder?

Last, while I can't see why it would, does 1 hand Spec apply to sunder?

While I know we are not factoring these in your current math, it seems to me that they need to be factored into this conversation as they are very relevant to the situation at hand. These talents seem to favor the use of devastate. Enough so that is should come out a fair margin ahead in the example we are using.

I realize that both defiance and 1 hand spec apply to HS, but if the base number for devastate starts to increase even more on sunder; it’s really a moot point.

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Q u o t e:
I have a few questions here, does focused rage apply to sunder?

Next, does defiance apply to sunder?

Last, while I can't see why it would, does 1 hand Spec apply to sunder?

While I know we are not factoring these in your current math, it seems to me that they need to be factored into this conversation as they are very relevant to the situation at hand. These talents seem to favor the use of devastate. Enough so that is should come out a fair margin ahead in the example we are using.

I realize that both defiance and 1 hand spec apply to HS, but if the base number for devastate starts to increase even more on sunder; it’s really a moot point.

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Focused Rage is used in current math; it also works for Sunder Armor.
Defiance applies to Sunder Armor as well as Devastate.
One-handed Specialization does not apply to Sunder Armor.

So, with 1h spec, Devistate starts to pull ahead by a fair margin I would think. By your gear setup with hight ATP value, the more that increases, the more 1h spec and Vitality start to influence the end picture.

Very good to know.

Thanks

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Q u o t e:
So, with 1h spec, Devistate starts to pull ahead by a fair margin I would think. By your gear setup with hight ATP value, the more that increases, the more 1h spec and Vitality start to influence the end picture.

Very good to know.

Thanks

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Yes, since most of the threat is actually from the damage of Devastate (as opposed to other abilities which have set threat values), it takes a particularly big bonus from One-Handed Specialization as far as an ability. I assume that it takes the bonus after all other factors are determined; however, I'm not 100% sure on that, and haven't added that in as a result.

Devestate is hot just for it's ability to refresh sunder. Finally a reason to sunder in PvP.

Kinda nice to have a spammable isntant attack too, it's a nice rage dump.

Some notes on normalization:

Weapon: Eskhandar's Right Claw (50-94 damage, 1.5 speed)
AP: 770

Mean average devastate hit with 79.4
Sample size: 31 hits (crits excluded) - Yeah, I know, not much.

Shield slam hit with only Drillborer Disk: 275 (random cloth mobs, SM Cath)
Expected hit: 286
Deduced DR: ~4%

Expected devastate hit with normalization: (72 + 2.4 * 55) / 2 = 102 * .97 = 99

Expected devastate hit without normalization: 170 / 2 = 85 * .97 = 82.5

Conclusions:

Devastate does not appear to be normalized. Even with such a small sample, with a difference of almost 20 and the fact that the ranges are effectively cut in half by the attack's mechanic, you would expect to see significantly better numbers if it were normalized.

There are both good and bad aspects to this. The good news is that very fast daggers, which are not favored by normalization to a great degree, are completely comparable to very fast swords. There appear to be quite a few good, high end daggers available at the 1.5 mark or below which have the added bonus of stamina, whereas pretty much the only top-end choices for swords/maces/axes would be the crafted Swordsmith weapons. On the other hand, this variety is purchased at the cost of less overall efficacy.

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Q u o t e:
Some notes on normalization:

Weapon: Eskhandar's Right Claw (50-94 damage, 1.5 speed)
AP: 770

Mean average devastate hit with 79.4
Sample size: 31 hits (crits excluded) - Yeah, I know, not much.

Shield slam hit with only Drillborer Disk: 275 (random cloth mobs, SM Cath)
Expected hit: 286
Deduced DR: ~4%

Expected devastate hit with normalization: (72 + 2.4 * 55) / 2 = 102 * .97 = 99

Expected devastate hit without normalization: 170 / 2 = 85 * .97 = 82.5

Conclusions:

Devastate does not appear to be normalized. Even with such a small sample, with a difference of almost 20 and the fact that the ranges are effectively cut in half by the attack's mechanic, you would expect to see significantly better numbers if it were normalized.

There are both good and bad aspects to this. The good news is that very fast daggers, which are not favored by normalization to a great degree, are completely comparable to very fast swords. There appear to be quite a few good, high end daggers available at the 1.5 mark or below which have the added bonus of stamina, whereas pretty much the only top-end choices for swords/maces/axes would be the crafted Swordsmith weapons. On the other hand, this variety is purchased at the cost of less overall efficacy.

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Into the realm of field testing!

Actually, this has been itching at me for a while, because I can see why they wouldn't normalize the attack (to counterbalance Heroic Strike). I'm gonna go ahead and get to work testing this.

so basically, with a nice slow weapon Devastate starts to really kick arse, but with faster weapons HS/Sunder is still better?

I was planning on skipping Imp Sunder since I was getting Devastate, but it seems I should get both for different situations? Damn thats three more points gone lol.

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Q u o t e:
so basically, with a nice slow weapon Devastate starts to really kick arse, but with faster weapons HS/Sunder is still better?

I was planning on skipping Imp Sunder since I was getting Devastate, but it seems I should get both for different situations? Damn thats three more points gone lol.

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Sort of.

With a fast weapon in a raid environment where you are tanking, you want Devastate.

With a fast weapon in a small-party environment, you want Improved Sunder Armor or Devastate (Devastate being to assist with Damage, Sunder Armor being to get better threat-per-rage).

With a fast weapon in a solo environment, you want Devastate.

I might have missed a post that addressed this. I seem to be missing the point altogether for this thread.

Are you trying to argue that a 41pt talent available at lvl 50 is better than a trainable skill available at lvl 10? If that is your argument, then I fail to see the point. I would absolutely hope that a 41pt talent has not just a small advantage over a trainable skill, but such an advantage that to question it is silly.

Devastate needs to compare to sunder like a Thunderfuy compares to a lvl 30 green "of the bear" sword. If it doesn't then I think it is a design failure on the part of the devs.

Edit: I forgot to mention that all great warriors I know use sunder only when all their other abilities are on cooldown. If Devastate compares to an ability like that at all, then it sucks.

I could re-work all these tables to compare to Rank 1 Sunder Armor. But if I did that, I think you'd find that you want to be comparing Devastate to the lvl 58 Sunder Armor instead of repeating catchphrases. ;-)

Devastate is Normalized!
When I originally posted this, I wanted to do the math in such a way that would be least beneficial to Devastate. I made the assumption that while there was a good chance Devastate was Normalized that, for the sake of making a convincing argument, it was not. Also, through all the math, any place where fractions would be beneficial to Devastate, I rounded down so as to be conservative in the values. After looking at the ability and realizing it's potential, I felt the best argument would be one that was conservative in nature, and with the lowest possible attributes would still come out king and worthy of a 41-point talent.

With that said, there were two reasons Devastate was assumed not to be Normalized. The first was that not all abilities are Normalized, and Blizzard tends to make note of new abilites that are. Riposte, Hemorrhage for Rogues, for instance, are not. The second, more important reason was that I originally felt Devastate was meant to balance out slow weapons such as Spineshatter against faster weapons that hold top spots among most Warriors; this would balance out itemization. Nevertheless, Spineshatter is still a horrible, horrible weapon, and nothing anyone does will change that (sorry tanks!).

What does Normalization mean to you? It means fast weapons get a very hefty bonus when tanking. Take, for instance, Widow's Remorse, a 1.6 speed weapon. Your attack power normally would be multiplied by weapon speed -- in this case, 1.6 * AP (1200), then divided by 14. However, a Normalized attack receives the a bonus of 2.4 * AP (1200), divided by 14; it doesn't take a rocket science to figure out that the increased multiplier will help your Widow's Remorse do considerably more damage. Since Devastate's threat is based on it's damage output, this helps alot. Finally, when combined with Heroic Strike tanking, this will make weapons like Hungering Cold, Widow's Remorse, and some others substantially more powerful than they already are listed as.


The Values
Ciderhelm, level 60 Warrior, Burning Crusade Closed Beta (this is a recopy of Cinderhelm so as to keep an accurate level I could work with). I had 1322 self-buffed Attack Power. Also, I removed One-Handed Specialization and stayed in BATTLE stance so as to maintain an unmodified environment where it would be easier to determine if normalization was occuring.

My two targets were Kindra (Knights of the Watch, Khadgar, Priest, 60) and Ash (Eventide, Cenarius, Paladin, 70). Both were sundered to zero armor and had no talents that would affect damage intake.

My weapons for testing were:
Chromatically Tempered Sword
152 Damage, 2.6 Weapon Speed
Devastate: 315*

Eskhandar's Right Claw
72 Damage, 1.5 Weapon Speed
Devastate: 271.5*

*Like the original values, the Devastate is an average of the damage values achieved through over 100 uses. Critical Strikes were not counted. It will not be 100% accurate, but the deviation should be so small that it will have no effect on final outcome.


The Math
The following is used to show what the damage should look like if attacks are not Normalized:
Chromatically Tempered Sword
With Attack Power = 152 + (2.6 * 1322 / 14) = 397
Devastate Damage Bonus = 397 * 0.5 = 198.5 + 125 = 323

Eskhandar's Right Claw
With Attack Power = 72 + (1.5 * 1322 / 14) = 213
Devastate Damage Bonus = 213 * 0.5 = 106 + 125 = 231

The following is used to show what the damage should look like if attacks are Normalized:
Chromatically Tempered Sword
With Attack Power = 152 + (2.4 * 1322 / 14) = 378
Devastate Damage Bonus = 378 * 0.5 = 189 + 125 = 314

Eskhandar's Right Claw
With Attack Power = 72 + (2.4 * 1322 / 14) = 298
Devastate Damage Bonus = 298 * 0.5 = 149 + 125 = 274


ACTUAL DAMAGE
CTS: 315
ESK: 271.5
If damage is not Normalized, there is a 30+ point deviation in damage dealt. If damage is Normalized, there is, at most, a 2.5 damage deviation. From this, we can conclude that Devastate is Normalized.


What this Means
Devastate IS normalized. This means fast weapons receive an enormous damage and threat boost from Devastate -- this is GOOD. It also means that even faster weapons will still be good and viable for low-rage situations, and for infinite rage Heroic Strike situations you will be dealing out considerably more threat and damage per second.

Being Normalized makes Devastate even better -- by a solid margin.

Very interesting. Again, the only thing that worries me is the relative lack of good top-end swords/fists/axes/maces at the 1.6 mark and below, given the data available to me on thottbot's beta section.

This is probably just because people haven't spent much time going into those Heroic mode dungeons, where the next logical upgrade to The Hungering Cold lies.

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Q u o t e:

Being Normalized makes Devastate even better -- by a solid margin.

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I guess this makes devastate better for MTs who can HS forever, but not as good for offtanks who need to keep high threat in very low rage situations. If not normalized, you could get a slight edge by using a 2.8 or 2.9 speed weapon. Oh well.

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Q u o t e:

I guess this makes devastate better for MTs who can HS forever, but not as good for offtanks who need to keep high threat in very low rage situations. If not normalized, you could get a slight edge by using a 2.8 or 2.9 speed weapon. Oh well.

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Yes, 100% agreed.

I understand that there are higher ranks for Sunder but my point is that a 41 pt talent that you have to be lvl 50 to even get, should outclass a trainable talent that you start getting at lvl 10. Even if the highest talent is trained at lvl 58, it is still a trainable talent that any warrior can get.

A 41 pt prot warrior should have a larger agro advantage from his 41st talent point.

I'm not sure what was meant by Sunder being a bread and butter move. For the raid tanks that I've talked to, Sunder sucks. It is only used when your good threat/rage moves are on cooldown and you have the rage for sunder.

I have played with a few amazing raid tanks, and none like sunder's threat generation. Any 41st prot talent pt being compared to Sunder(any rank) instead of something like Revenge or Shield Slam seems to be a failure already.

I think the only way devestate could be saved as a must have talent is to give it properties like cleave or whirlwind. A multi-target medium threat move would be very useful even if it doesn't generate wonderful threat/rage on single targets.