What's really disturbing to me is that almost everybody seems satisfied with another 'Attack' from the protection tree. Devastate in its current form at level 60 does generate 'slightly' more threat per application over sunder armor. I can honestly say that tanking almost every boss in the game that another 'threat generation tool' is just not what I want from the protection tree. So people who are 'QQn' about it probably have this same view.

I can hardly justify 41 points in a tree that gives me only a few more threat per rotation. Where as an ability like shield slam gives a-lot more threat per use than sunder. I don't know about you other warriors but if I'm going to spec prot it's because I want to take less damage. Things like toughness and Shield Mastery are what appeal to me rather than a half-assed ability that causes only slightly more threat per rotation. To me it's just insulting that blizzard would give a warriors wet-dream talent to paladins. Ardent Defender.

To you guys that are using math as justification that it is a worthwhile ability and being a MT without it would be just out right stupid... really need to look at what it takes to hold aggro on a mob. It really is not that difficult. In fact things like Defiance only help you on fights where the raid en-gages on a mob immediately. Fights like Anub are Grand Widow are perfect examples of fights where defiance does absolutely nothing. I'm not knocking on the talent. However I am trying to draw a comparison. Tanking with this ability really isn't going to be dramatically different or in-fact noticeable. Where in-fact shield slam is. Or, if we had it, Ardent Defender.

So to summarize my feelings on the talent. If you are past 31 points in prot and are still having problems with aggro this talent will by no means solve your issues. My wish for a 41 point talent in protection is something that helps me take less damage. As threat is not an issue.

---

Q u o t e:
So to summarize my feelings on the talent. If you are past 31 points in prot and are still having problems with aggro this talent will by no means solve your issues. My wish for a 41 point talent in protection is something that helps me take less damage. As threat is not an issue.

---

You used to have a tree with only a few abilities in the first tiers dedicated to actual damage mitigation. You now have a tree with many talents dedicated to damage mitigation, some of these much farther down the tree.

If you can do 10% more threat while main-tanking, doesn't that mean your raid can do 10% more threat safely? or, 10% more damage? Isn't that always a good thing, and part of tanking? (yes)

Especially given the new abilities some classes have and just how much damage they can output, we should be thankful for abilities that scale. Isn't that the biggest strength of Druid tanks, that their abilities scale so well?

This kind of talent makes me pretty happy. Given that our Attack Power by all accounts is nothing compared to what it will be at level 70 in raiding gear, I think it's great that even in our current gear we have a talent that does well.

---

Q u o t e:


If you can do 10% more threat while main-tanking, doesn't that mean your raid can do 10% more threat safely? or, 10% more damage? Isn't that always a good thing, and part of tanking? (yes)

---

Umm so 2 attacks every rotation = 10% threat?

First of all, Yes if 10% threat meant a 10% damage increase sure. But since I think the only class we have in our raid that is even CAPABLE of pulling aggro while going all out is Warlocks and Fire mages when the rolling ignites stack up past 5k. So umm, since the are completely nerfing rolling ignites and warlocks have an instant ability that costs a soul-shard to reduce threat. Your so-called 10% still means little to nothing to me in terms of actual tanking. Where as taking less damage is constant.

---

Q u o t e:


Umm so 2 attacks every rotation = 10% threat?

First of all, Yes if 10% threat meant a 10% damage increase sure. But since I think the only class we have in our raid that is even CAPABLE of pulling aggro while not going all out is Warlocks and Fire mages when the rolling ignites stack up past 5k. So umm, since the are completely nerfing rolling ignites and warlocks have an instant ability that costs a soul-shard to reduce threat. Your so-called 10% still means little to nothing to me in terms of actual tanking. Where as taking less damage is constant.

---

Oh, I'm absolutely not saying Devastate is 10% additional threat. But the theory is the same ;-) part of your job as a tank is holding aggro.

If no one has ever pulled aggro from you ever, I salute you, and by all means these talents are worthless to you. ;-)

Noth is about the only fight where people still pull aggro occasionally. But it's right after a blink. So I kind of call it shame on them.

Perhaps I should add I'm not denying your math. Looked spot on. To me the gains are just to small to justify a 41 point talent. I really hope blizzard takes a good look at it and makes adjustments. But so far from using it all it feels like is I replace my sunder key with my devastate key.

Doesn't the fact that Devastate addresses the biggest weaknesses of Protection mean anything? Seriously. If Blizzard's going to try to make Arms and Fury less clear-cut between the two when it comes to what role you want for PvP or PvE, it's kind of obvious they're going to do the same for Protection.

I think the main draw of devastate that you are overlooking seryph is the fact that it scales so well with gear. It may not be hugely noticeable now, but with the stat inflation occuring at the lvl 70 game I expect devastate to be noticeably higher than sunder.

---

Q u o t e:
But so far from using it all it feels like is I replace my sunder key with my devastate key.

---

Now let's look at this realistically.

Does your Sunder key fill up everyone's screen with a giant red swoosh? Does it? That alone is a great reason to use it.

Devastate = WARRIOR EVISCERATE SPAM!!!

First of all I do not deny the fact that Devastate will scale. But again the dynamics of the game are changing dramatically. For instance, Improved thunderclap is actually an amazing skill for a tank. Now since the majority of the game play for the the next 4-5 months will be in 5-10 man instances. Perhaps the 15 mans as well. You will certainly notice that Utility will be > Devastate.

As far as gear scaling , it's pretty obviously scaling in terms of stamina/stats. Not attack power for warriors. Which for tanking I'm happy for(makes me cry for DPS). Agility > Strength for tanking ANY day. Initially we probably won't see large gains from AP from gear. Blessings/Totems^^/Battle Shout will make up a good majority of our attack power for a long time. In translation for Devastate: the only thing that will really scale it is a better weapon.

By the way does anyone have the threat values for lvl 67 Sunder? If so I bet you guys could get Cinder to add all the 95 Dps weapons in comparison to the new rank of sunder. Would address peoples concerns of scaling.

---

Q u o t e:
Devastate = WARRIOR EVISCERATE SPAM!!!

---

Nonsense. Devastate is Sinister Strike, not Eviscerate.

Devastate: Costs 12 rage, 1.5 second cooldown. Deals 50% weapon damage plus a bunch.
Sinister Strike: Costs 40 energy, 4 seconds of energy ticks to replenish. Deals 100% weapon damage plus some.

---

Q u o t e:
Devastate Damage Bonus = 254 * 0.5 = 127 + 125 = 252

---

Cinderhelm, or anybody: can you explain to me why the Devastate damage is modified by 125 instead of 35 please? I've been known to be a bad reader so please pardon me if there's something obvious I'm missing, thanks.

35 is the level 70 rank. 25 is the level 60 rank. Sunder stacks 5 times. 25*5=125 ^^.

p.s. I was referring to the visual animation that Cinder was referring to. The sound too. Nothing technical , lol.

---

Q u o t e:
35 is the level 70 rank. 25 is the level 60 rank. Sunder stacks 5 times. 25*5=125

---

Oh~! So it's 25 "per application of sunder armor"? That's real nice. Got a little mislead there by the description. Thanks!

---

Q u o t e:
It's a 7.5 second cycle because you originally stated "2 SS/Revenge/SA/SA." That is 5 attacks, or 5*1.5 = 7.5 seconds. The 31.5 second cycle isn't "flawed." In fact, it takes into account the 5 second CD of Revenge vs the 6 second CD of SS. Before you lecture on "basic algebra" make sure you can realize it has already been done correctly.

---

Reread my original statement - it simply means 2 cycles of SS/Revenge/SA/SA. Reading comprehension is at an all time low it seems.

---

Q u o t e:

Glancing blows have never been factored into the equation up to this point, so your observation that HS doesn't glance is irrelevant. Furthermore, "would probably give us additional 150 damage over that time period" is hardly a precise measurement. If you had chosen 60 additional damage, we'd be under 27.31 TPS, and if you had chosen 300 damage, well then "clearly" Devastate is teh sucks! Inventing "probable" values is deceptive.

---

I don't have the mob level, +weapon skill of the player, his race, or any other relevant information. However, we know that a player has 40% chance to glance for 70% damage against Raid Bosses, so I am going off that number. I could use slightly lower number, but in either case, the overall damage lost during those 30 seconds would probably be around 100-150 damage.

---

Q u o t e:

actually, normalization would favor *fast* weapons, and reduce the threat output of slow weapons.

---

Well, it merely brings up faster weapons more in line with slower weapons, much like people still prefer to use slower weapons with MS. I wouldn't say it favors them, since slower weapons will still do higher devastates.

---

Q u o t e:

Your ultimate point seems to be that Devastate and Sunder have very similar rage efficiencies. Lets give you that point for the sake of argument... even given that, Devastate would still be better due to the fact that for the same threat output and efficiency, you are adding upwards of 80+dps that is completely lacking if you were simply sundering.

---

Yes, assuming same threat and efficiency... But that's the question. While I don't have time to do math right now, I will simply say that, if Sunder Armor provides even 1-2% higher aggro ceiling in the grand scheme, is the extra damage from Devastate worth it? Right now, the answer might be yes, but as we move on, and at level 70 DPS spirals out of control while Warriors are stuck with mostly nonscaling threat, you might need every single point of threat you can get.

---

Q u o t e:
and at level 70 DPS spirals out of control while Warriors are stuck with mostly nonscaling threat, you might need every single point of threat you can get.

---

You realize Devastate *is* scaling threat, right? With the caveat that we don't know how much threat the next rank of Sunder will give, I think it's safe to say with what we can see of TBC itemization and stat allocation, and with the fact that under current Live conditions Devastate matches or exceeds the threat output of Sunder Armor we can expect that Devastate will ultimately outscale the static threat of Sunder.

---

Q u o t e:


You realize Devastate *is* scaling threat, right? With the caveat that we don't know how much threat the next rank of Sunder will give, I think it's safe to say with what we can see of TBC itemization and stat allocation, and with the fact that under current Live conditions Devastate matches or exceeds the threat output of Sunder Armor we can expect that Devastate will ultimately outscale the static threat of Sunder.

---

Yes, yes, that is the caveat. And yes, it does scale, which is good, but not as good as one would like...

Let's say a tank at 70 has 400 more AP than at level 60, which is being generous, since I have seen maybe 200-300 AP increase in tanking gear at level 70. And the weapon DPS went up from 65 to 90 DPS, or 25 more DPS. 400 AP adds 28.5 DPS, so, a total of 53.6 DPS increase going from level 60 to level 70 tank. Counting armor at 20%, and weapon speed at 2.4, this comes out to 51.4 extra threat. So going up 53.6 DPS yielded increase of 51.4 threat per application.

Consider, the same DPS will add 102.8 threat to Heroic Strike.

It scales, but not as much as we would like =( And it is nowhere near that of Druid scaling.

At level 70 we'll also have a new rank of Devastate that does 10 more damage per application, and possibly a higher innate threat bonus. So without the unknown threat bonus, using your numbers, Devastate will do 101.4 threat. Need I also point out again that HS and Devastate are not mutually exclusive skills given enough rage, and that Devastate will take priority over HS in limiting rage situations? The 1.4 threat difference (again, using your numbers, and ignoring their position in the 31.5 second tanking cycle) will be more than made up for by the ability of Devastate to be applied every 1.5 seconds as opposed to weapon speed for HS.

---

Q u o t e:
At level 70 we'll also have a new rank of Devastate that does 10 more damage per application, and possibly a higher innate threat bonus. So without the unknown threat bonus, using your numbers, Devastate will do 101.4 threat. Need I also point out again that HS and Devastate are not mutually exclusive skills given enough rage, and that Devastate will take priority over HS in limiting rage situations? The 1.4 threat difference (again, using your numbers, and ignoring their position in the 31.5 second tanking cycle) will be more than made up for by the ability of Devastate to be applied every 1.5 seconds as opposed to weapon speed for HS.

---

That 1.4 threat difference was not in rage-limited situations. All excess rage was dumped into Heroic Strike, which is inefficient, as you said. If, instead of Heroic Strike, the extra rage was spent on Sunder Armor, the resultant difference would be much higher. HEroic Strike is not a good example of course, since it does not account for the hit that would have taken place instead. What about Shield Slam? 1 block = 0.8 threat against 20% armor.

Anyway, that is not the point. At level 70 we will also have new rank of Sunder Armor, so I cannot say how they will stack up then. But I am pointing out that even though Devastate scales, it still scales poorly. Your DPS went from 140 to 193 or so, 38% gain, yet your threat went up 51 points from around 300, not even a 20% gain. Basically, when DPS classes does double the damage, your threat will only go up 50%, and that is a problem.

Although I suppose, some scaling is better than none at all, as bad as it is.

A lot of people are talking about Threat per second variables. My question however is whats the most hate per rage efficiency. Heroic Strike is by far the WORST hate per rage because it doesn't allow a gain of rage from the normal white attack. Unlike Cider who loves Heroic strike, I dislike it specifically because it reduces the amount of rage I can spend.

In fights where there IS an unlimited amount of rage - I first use the most hate per second abilities such as revenge and shieldslam. After that I spam sunders - if i STILL have a surplus of rage - I then use heroic strike as a method of keeping my rage from reaching full. This imo is the best most efficient way of threat.

Problem is post expansion we'll be getting new talents and abilities which will make sunder for example - extremely cheap.

I guess my question is - say your maintanking a 5-man instance where you have very little incoming rage to begin with. What is the best Hate Per Rage sequence?

1) Revenge
2) improved Sunder Armor
3) Shieldslam
4) Devestate
5) improved Heroic Strike

I'm not sure if the above is correct but it was made assuming that the warrior is a full prot build with iheroic and isunder as well as the focused rage talent.

I think the best deciding factor is trying to find out what causes the most hate for each point of rage. Than a warrior who tanks by those guidelines can than use the more inefficient methods of hate generation only when his rage bar begins to fill up. Of Course there are always exceptions to this rule where snap-aggro is important (like noth for example.)

Anyway - is my sequence correct?
-Wanderer/Shiree

Beyond Devastate looking like a great scalable threat ability, it seems like a major benefit to having the talent is the DPS increase (which Cider already displayed) alone as crazy as it sounds. Considering raid situations, once those 5 sunders are up the tank will be able to switch to Devastate, which would be a pretty massive DPS increase. Think about all of the times you use sunder to keep it up and imagine it doing damage as well. It will be helpful right now for 40 man raid situations, but the DPS from the MT could be an even more important factor in 25 man raids in situations where you need every inch of DPS you can put out.