yeah... all the end results are using the correct values... it just looked like you copy/pasted in the wrong value in those two instances =)

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I have a Thunderfury and TRUST ME I want to know. But holy heavens it was hard enough to get this all done. =p I'm going to get that done as soon as I can, I just have to figure out where to plug in the values!

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TF can proc on sunder. The proc is completely neutral in the sunder vs. devastate argument, so it's not any harder to figure out than any other 1.9 speed weapon.

Personally, I can't possibly imagine giving up my TF in 5 mans because of how it lets me tank multiple mobs. I -might- replace it with some crazy 80 dps 1h for raid mobs, but it's still the coolest looking sword in the game, so I'll be tempted to keep it. :p

EDIT: Thanks for going to the trouble of figuring up these numbers Ciderhelm. Great guide!

Must know where TF falls.
/bump for good knowledge! (as always)

Oh one other thing I noticed. Don't you need to account for -10% damage in defensive stance? The threat bonus you can ignore since it affects devastate and sunder equally, but the damage penalty does not.

If my math is correct, Quel'Serrar is pretty good. It does 289.17 threat per use. Better than bloodlord and Widow's Remorse.

Stating it because a lot of people have Que'Serrar and it was THE tanking weapon.

Isn't attack power normalized on the weapons, so that regardless of their speed they obtain the same attack power bonus? Something that might substantially change your values Cider.

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Oh one other thing I noticed. Don't you need to account for -10% damage in defensive stance? The threat bonus you can ignore since it affects devastate and sunder equally, but the damage penalty does not.

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Im guessing that the -10% damage from from def stance can be negated by the +10% damage from 1h spec. (not sure where the modifiers are actually calculated)

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*With standard Blizzard itemization and raid buffs, an average Warrior will have 1200 Attack Power and 15% Critical Strike rating in a raid and similar numbers in small-parties where they will be wearing more DPS-oriented gear.

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Im gonna sort through the post, but am already going 41 points into prot no matter.. My thoughts immediately saw this though.. 15% crit and 1200 atk pwer? Dont know which Prot tanks you looked at and what gear you were looking at for tht..

But tier 2, quel serrar and sword and board, other prot gear... Im pushing like 5-7% crit? Joke yes, but nothing near the 15%, and my atk pwr is relatively low I beleive too.

As a MT, i dont go for nor have went for DPS gear.. that may be part of it but being a MT i decided to make the sacrifice early on... But thanks for the statistics on the post, will go through it slowly looks like a lot of good juicy numbers :D

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Isn't attack power normalized on the weapons, so that regardless of their speed they obtain the same attack power bonus? Something that might substantially change your values Cider.

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I do not believe Attack Power is normalized for normal attacks, only for specifically normalized instant attacks such as Whirlwind. I also have not seen that Devastate is normalized. If there were normalization, it would greatly increase the value of fast Weapon Speed weapons. I'm open to anything in terms of math you can throw at me to adjust it, though.

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Im guessing that the -10% damage from from def stance can be negated by the +10% damage from 1h spec. (not sure where the modifiers are actually calculated)

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Yes. Depending on how Blizzard calculates 10% damage and 10% damage loss from 1h spec and Defensive Stance, there is a margin of error of 1% on my values vs. the portion of actual values that reflect DPS.

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Im gonna sort through the post, but am already going 41 points into prot no matter.. My thoughts immediately saw this though.. 15% crit and 1200 atk pwer? Dont know which Prot tanks you looked at and what gear you were looking at for tht..

But tier 2, quel serrar and sword and board, other prot gear... Im pushing like 5-7% crit? Joke yes, but nothing near the 15%, and my atk pwr is relatively low I beleive too.

As a MT, i dont go for nor have went for DPS gear.. that may be part of it but being a MT i decided to make the sacrifice early on... But thanks for the statistics on the post, will go through it slowly looks like a lot of good juicy numbers :D

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I'm sitting in a raid atm, using no consumables, at 1344 Attack Power. If you aren't using Battle Shout, you might be having some issues. If you aren't specced 5 points into Cruelty, you will also have some issues. ;-) These are realistic numbers, easily.

Talking to my rogues and warriors they are all under the impression that attack power is normalized for all attacks. Being as Devastate is going to be tossed up as yellow damage, I would *assume* that it would apply to this instant attack as well. However, where it's applied, I'm not sure, nor am I sure that it would be applied to devastate, can probably be established pretty easily with some testing.

Oh, and I regularly run close to those values as far as AP and crit go, I'm about 12% crit, and 1250ish AP.

Attack power damage bonus to instant attacks is normalized.

Great post! Devastate is a really neat new abilty.

Cruelty, Mm yeah thats what im lacking, but the other skills i got in places, seem to do me just as well. 5% crit gain on a warrior with 6-7 crit already base.. not going to improve me a lot.

That and loosing 5 pts is gonna hurt...

P.S. Also to get into the 41 pt tree of devastate, before the xpansion.. you will only have 41 pts available, so no cruelty anyways...

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P.S. Also to get into the 41 pt tree of devastate, before the xpansion.. you will only have 41 pts available, so no cruelty anyways...

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???

5/5/41. You _are_ level 60, right? :D

*giggles* der derrr

Well then those other points still wont go into cruelty im sure, maybe like heroic strike rage reduction.. t.t

/wave

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Well then those other points still wont go into cruelty im sure, maybe like heroic strike rage reduction..

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I'd think that a poor choice, but YMMV.

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*giggles* der derrr

Well then those other points still wont go into cruelty im sure, maybe like heroic strike rage reduction.. t.t

/wave

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You're a moron. Picking up Focused Rage accounts for the loss of Improved Heroic Strike, meaning you get no loss in your current tanking performance and still gain full value from cruelty.

Before I conk out for the night (apologies tiarn i'm still going to get our stuff posted, I just spent an absurd amount of time on this today)...

First: Devastate may very well be normalized. This would be a good thing. However, the reason I would guess it isn't normalized -- a mathematical application meant to help faster weapons -- is because we already have Heroic Strike to make fast weapons incredibly powerful. Also, not all abilities are normalized; for instance Rogue Riposte is not normalized even though Sinister Strike is. If in fact Devastate is normalized, it is beneficial on every level to threat generation for a Warrior, and is even more reason to look forward to this talent.

Second: If your Attack Power or Crit really sucks... fix it. Don't ignore a crucial element of your class and your itemization. Increasing your Attack Power is something I have been arguing on these forums for more than half a year, and the argument is only more solid with an ability like this. Blizzard has put Strength on all of your gear for a reason. Also, Vitality (10% Strength) will be released with Devastate. So, just like you would use a Flask of the Titans for tanking new bosses, you might want to consider using Elemental Sharpenings Stones or Elixir of the Giants while you improve your itemization.

Remember, if you can increase your threat generation by 10%, that means your raid can increase their DPS by 10%. Your responsibility as a tank is to mitigate damage and control the mob; part of that control is threat generation.