Many of the lower level dungeons on heroic mode are just fine. The level 70 instances on their heroic modes are a different matter. Arcatraz, Shadow Labs, and Shattered Halls I don't even attempt to do on heroic anymore now that I've gotten the quests done. PuG's cannot do the three I mentioned unless they are geared well and have skilled players at the keyboard. I'll let other people complain about the 2nd boss in Mechanar on heroic =D.

I think Heroic Slave Pens is overall a well-balanced heroic but the usage of 2xAOE fear + 1xMC mechanics in a single pull is over the top. Very bad luck if you don't stack crowd control simply for those pulls.

Heroic Botanica is a little bit easier than I expected except that the first boss can do absolutely insane burst damage to well-geared tanks unless you have a magic dispeller in the group -- a royal pain for Shaman and Druid healers. Thorngrin's aggro drops are very touchy making him the hardest individual boss I've seen in a heroic; I've only been able to down him in one group there.

Heroic Mana Tombs is pretty impossible nearing the room to the final boss unless you've stacked crowd control.

Heroic Underbog is solid, nothing too hard or too easy there.

Heroic Steam Vaults is pretty solid but I can't imagine how you could do the second boss without Thunderclap or Consecration.

Heroic Sethekk Halls is too easy; the only hard part is the Ravenguards after they've enraged, but that could be worked around by DPSing one mostly down so its time spent enraged is minimal.

Heroic Ramparts and Blood Furnace are fine, but Paladins and Shamans healing are penalized during Broggok's pre-fight because they require a terribly long time to recover mana outside the five second rule compared to the Spirit healing classes. Keeping that last mob trapped/feared/sheeped for a couple minutes is boring. I think the amount of mobs in that boss gauntlet should just be reduced -- it wouldn't be easier, but far less tedious for the healer.

Heroic Mechanar is fine other than the fact that Pathaleon is very easy with a fear rotation but not stacking AOE fears in the party makes him very difficult. I don't feel that Sepethrea is really too hard, but most groups I've been with are not skilled enough to beat her even though they can beat the rest. The four-pull of non-elite demons throwing grenades is pretty ugly without a warlock.

ok ive been running heroics for a few months now

have collected around 120badges in total

about the only thing i see that needs a change is heroic bm, it requires epic geared people to clear, which makes clearing it pointless as anything that drops is not needed by anyone in the party.

from a healers point of view, id say the dmg of most mobs is ok, some hit very hard, some not so much, just means cc is neccesary rather then optional.

so in short, make heroic BM more forgiving, but i like the balance of the others, some are easier than others, but i assume thats intended

I don't need uber gear from it, it would just be nice to see *different* gear.

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Q u o t e:
I don't need uber gear from it, it would just be nice to see *different* gear.

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This man brings up a good point, please reitemize the level 70 heroic dungeons, slightly higher iLevel blues would be great on the non-final bosses.

Page 1.

Overall, i'd way heroics in general are way too easy. Mech, SP, UB, Ramps, and BF in particular. Most of the bosses hit like girls and the healer has no trouble keeping me up if they are properly geared (not in greens).

Some heroics such as BM and SH are too hard for the reward. If you finish BM or SH without any problems, it is likely that you don't need anything that drops there.

I'd suggest a complete revamp of the loot tables that drop from level 70 heroics, as nearly every heroic I do turns into a shard run.

Heroic rewards are pretty bad. Even most of the badge rewards are not worth it. Some trinkets and offhands are the only things worth getting.

Heroic versions of lvl 70 dungeons have the same loot as the normal versions. Several epics that final bosses drop do not really cut it.

Most of the heroics are balanced around cc, which pretty much prevents off-specs and certain classes from attempting them.

Edit: Forgot what I wanted to edit, so will add it later.

Edit 2:

Heroic Mech - Very nice Heroic if you outgear it. Can complete it in guild run in under an hour. 5 badges, 1 nether and a lot of shards. There is absolutely nothing to do here other than badges.

Edit 3:
Heroic Mana Tombs - First boss hits way too hard. I will go as far as to say that he hits harder than Gruul after 5-6 growths. Mobs before the final boss are ridiculous. Two of the immolate mobs can put 2 immolates on each person in under 2 seconds and it is all over. With damage being thrown around and those things ticking means a wipe most of the times no matter how hard you try. There is only that much you can do with a gcd.
Heroic BF - Nice instance. I can see how it will be impossible without a warlock closer to the end of it.

With current level of rewards all heroics should be nerfed to about Mech level and amount of badges in each one of them increased to 5 minimum.

Don't add any new type of heroic badges. I have no space in my bank and inventory as it is.

Do not remove the badges from 2 mini-bosses in Mech. The only reason that people even run heroics are for badges. Everyone in this thread who said that heroics were easy are dressed in epics. Of course they will be easy once you out gear them.

Comments about loot:

- Since level 70 heroic dungeons (Steamvaults, for one example) share the same (non-epic) loot with the non-heroics, ilvl 112 stuff can drop which... just doesn't seem right.

- I would like to have all non-end bosses drop 2 rare/blue items from their loot table, instead of 1. The quality of loot from them (aside from the badges) is on par with the normal dungeons, but usually fills in gaps in itemisation which the normal dungeons don't have (hello slow off-hand for enhancement shaman) - but, since they have the timers on them, if you're after a specific piece of blue-quality gear, you've got a low chance of getting it - compared to normal dungeons, where you can just run them as much as you want.


For reference, my two characters (druid & shaman) are in good blue gear (with a handful of kara & exalted rep epics). I haven't done all of the heroics yet, though I've run some in either guild groups or random pugs (usually at about the same level of gear).


Underbog

- Not too bad, though the poison spitters hurt. The bear charge/knockback is annoying when you get hit into or behind some of the doodady things around that area.

- The last boss still sucks - the adds look to be completely random (some fights there hasn't been any, or only appear at the last 10% - sometimes about 10 seconds after pulling). Having the tank get levitated and no way to dispel is also annoying.


Slave Pens

- The double pulls immune to CC are the hard parts... trying to double-tank them is touch and go sometimes with healing threat, usually right at the start.

- The npc at the end needs to be buffed, or his AI changed so he doesn't try running into melee, or something. Sometimes been able to save him, other times he's run in and joined the fight even when fighting the spawned group far away from him.


Steamvaults

- Siren's fear is exceedingly annoying :D

- The water elemental boss is still the most difficult, with the lightning clouds and the chance of getting stunned inside one.


Sethekk Halls

- The first boss again seemed to be more difficult (compared to Ikiss and Anzu).

- Had 3 CC the time I went (priest, rogue, mage) so the trash (aside from the double guards & ravenguards) was easy.


Mana-Tombs

- Had 2 humanoid CC (warlock, rogue), so most of the trash was okay - except for the rogue-ish types towards the end, who would gouge the tank then one-shot the healer.

- Our tank had a close-to-max SR set, so Pandy wasn't too difficult, though even with mashing F1 to deselect him when he went to cast the reflect shield I still often took ~4-5 reflected hits (though that may be partly to do with ~500ms latency)

- The final boss is crazy... got him down 2nd time, just ignoring then fear-bombing the adds. The increased hp of the adds, them turning into casters faster and them getting spawning them in quicker just seems to make it exceedingly difficult to try and burn them down (like on normal) and still actually damage him in the meantine.

Here's my take on each of the instances.

Coilfang Reservoir:
Slave Pens: Very easy all around, a great run for starting Heroics.
Underbog: Slightly on the long side, but not too bad. On the easy side.
Steamvaults: Not a huge upgrade in difficulty from the normal version.

Hellfire Citadel:
Ramparts: Not too bad with a tank that can pick stuff up quickly. Ranged DPS is better for Omor, although it can be done with a melee heavy group.
Blood Furnace: Pretty tough, second boss is very CC-dependant. Bringing a Warlock trivializes the instance.
Shattered Halls: Extremely CC-dependant. Second boss (Warbringer O'mrogg) is very random. Timers for quests are reasonable.

Auchindoun:
Mana Tombs: I have only done the final boss (Nexus-Prince Shiffar), which was easy with a decently geared, melee-heavy group.
Auchenai Crypts: Fun instance. First boss (Shirrak the Dead Watcher) is tough and is a great coordination check. Priests are very useful here.
Sethekk Halls: On the hard side. Darkweaver Syth is a very hectic fight.
Shadow Labyrinth: Very, very long instance. Murmur's changes on Heroic are very good and not imbalancing.

Tempest Keep:
Mechanar: Great run for farming Badges of Justice. Nethermancer Sepethrea is not as hard as people make her out to be.
Botanica: Have not run this instance on Heroic.
Arcatraz: Not too much harder than normal. Abyssal meteor damage is a little high, it seems. Getting double Mind Flays on Harbinger Skyriss is annoying and deadly.

Caverns of Time:
Old Hillsbrad Foothills: Amazing instance. Well-paced and difficult, but not too hard.
Black Morass: We did an easy clear with a T5-geared group, so I don't know how hard it would be with people in blues. Didn't seem like it would be all too difficult.

Re-tune heroic Black Morass and Old Hillsbrad please, they are the two most unforgiving heroics out there.

Everything else is fine.

Black Morass Executioner adds are just stupid.

you should add a hidden boss under water in Heroic Steamvaults a giant water elemental guy named
The Deathly drowner
and he is like yor but he drops necklaces for everyclass

My big question is where are heroic dungeons supposed to fit? Are they between the non heroics and Karazhan? Or are they supposed to be Gruul / Magtheridon level? Or somewhere between? Some of the heroics fit in the first group, some in the last, some in between. I think that is the major problem. For sure there is a perception that all heroics are not created equal.

That said, I love the challenge of every heroic Ive attempted or completed. I like the fact that you have to be on the top of your game to complete it. Overall I would say that there are is an over reliance on the need for crowd control. If you are of one of the classes with out crowd control, or not spec'd to heal or tank there is very little room for you.

From my experiences as PVP warrior with some Protection talents, and decent tanking gear;

Heroic Mechanar I have completed many times.

It is the easiest one for me to get a group for. The fact that you can pull out 5 badges from there in under an hour if you really know what you are doing I feel is the major fact. Is it not the easiest of the heroics, can but can be completed quickly for big payout. The fact that it has good warrior epics at the end make it so many warriors want to go there.

The trash, is nicely placed and balanced until you get downstairs. The four little demon pull is utter hell without a warlock. I have been blown out of the water many times trying to tank all four, I even bought a set of decent arcane resist gear for this dungeon ( it didnt help here ). The other pulls with the demons can be very difficult without a warlock. Having a skilled warlock trivializes the difficulty of these fights. I will not go into Heroic Mechanar without a warlock. The Destroyers are also difficult, next to impossible if you are unable to deal with the charged fist. Im learning to deal with it, but I still dread these pulls ;) The waves of trash leading up to the last boss can be very challenging if you do not have a leader who can mark targets quickly, as the fights are challenging enough when they are standing still so you can mark them.

The bosses, the first two half boses are nice, two badges and a blue between them. Shame Ive never seen anyone need any of those items. The first real boss is a nice fight, if people can learn a couple rules. His spawned bombs can be trivialized by tanking him on the stairs. The second boss, well we'll come back to her .. The final boss is a nice fight, Ive had some great groups that down him with little problems, Ive been in groups that have been able to clear up to him, but just didnt have what it took to down him. I think he is a great boss, his loot from a warrior's perspective is just amazing. Now lets go back the that girl.. I always work with a three strikes rule with this boss. Sometimes 'luck' based fights are cool, sometimes very cruel. I like this fight, its super challenging, and requires everyone to really pay attention, however the room is horrible for it. Three adds spewing fire all over the place on top of a boss with a stun plus knock back / aggro drop plus a snare on the tank, makes for some serious aggro issues for many classes. Something has to give with her, she is a deviant when it comes to difficulty vs reward. This dungeon is on the top of my list for what heroics Ill go to, even after looting it dry ;)

Underbog, I have attempted three times and completed once.

This dungeon is a nice balance of risk vs reward. Any mistakes on the trash and everyone is running. Any mistakes on the bosses and everyone is running. The first boss fight might be out of whack for difficulty due to out of control mushroom spawning. Even the run that we made it through we wiped on this boss more than any other, and its the first in the dungeon. The worst issue with this dungeon is how long of a run it is for wipe recovery. Its between 5 and 10 minutes to ghost run from the graveyard to the last boss. This dungeon is on my list of heroics I will go to.

Heroic Steamvaults, I have completed a couple of times.

Again a nicely balanced dungeon for risk vs reward. Any major mistakes with the trash or the bosses and everyone is running back. The gnome boss pretty much forces some serious AoE skill to beat him. Little gnomes hide behind him well, making it even trickier. Not a big fan of the run back. I will go back to this dungeon.

And the Slavepens, I have attempted this dungeon once.

This dungeon seemed to be fairly well balanced. We just had a rookie team in this dungeon and not enough time to press on to learn it. I look forward to trying to learn it, not looking forward to the graveyard run.

Coilfang needs a graveyard somewhere by the meeting stone. Time the run back to any of these dungeons, time the run back to Mechanar. Dying is punishment enough, I do not need to dwell on my mistakes for THAT long, while getting back in place for another shot at a tough and challenging fight that I am trying to learn.

The dungeons I have not been to any why ..

Heroic Ramparts, I think even has some loot for my warrior, but TWO badges? And a boss that many people feel requires a serious level fire resist from everyone? No thanks.

Heroic Durnholde, I *loved* this dungeon in normal difficulty, I would *love* to go back to it. I have heard that it has some good challenging fights. However the instance is in Tanaris, quite possible the farthest place in the game away from the population centers, and where people hang out while looking for a group. No one wants to go there, I have never seen a guild message or LFG message for this place. A portal from Shatcity to Gadgetzan would have me looking for a group patch day.

Heroic Black Morass. I really like the timed factor of this dungeon, succeed or fail, its not going to take you much longer than 30 minutes to run this. That is a great thing for this dungeon. I have heard it is very difficult, but I would like to try this dungeon. Again, no one wants to run it.

I like the idea of heroic dungeons. They are one of my favorite aspects of the game these days. Be serious about looking into converting some of the Azeroth dungeons to heroics. Heroic Onyxia.

Rewards could be "seasonally" upgraded like arena gear is. Being a holy pally with an active raiding guild i benefit more from dual gathering and so primal nethers are almost useless. Im not sure if the intent was to have heroics prep you for kara and other raids or be an alternative, but i found i couldnt do most level 70 5mans on heroic until having alot of kara gear, and even then i would almost always need a mage and warlock.

*BM heroic is a joke

*Overall I am impressed with heroics. GJ BLizz.

*why are some bosses heroic drops almost exactly the same as normal?

*Perhaps offering Raid useable Flask as rewards such as the Unstables from BEM would drive more raiders back into heroics. Profession patterns would rock as well like the Epic Gnomish Flying Pig mount i would really like to see in game.

*oh yeah, did i mention
ALMOST ALWAYS NEED A WARLOCK

*no offense Teeneyweeney*