When I see topics about hybrids and arena, I cringe. Most people are stoutly against hybrids having more than 1 viable spec in PvP. Some people write logical, reasonable arguments against it.

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Q u o t e:
The amount of crying over this could easily equal that of mages. Do you guys really want to be down to their level?

You're basically saying that all druid specs should be arena viable. Well, if Blizzard can do that, why can't they make prot warrior/paladins viable too? What about full destro locks and full survival hunters?? All hybrids classes have their downfalls in the arena. Even if you're a dps class, there is usually one 'best' spec. Just ask any former harp rogue that was basically forced to respec shadowstep after 2.3.2.

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Some people don't (please let this be a joke post...)

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Q u o t e:
NoOO DUHH !! until HOLY Priests, Ret pally, PROT tank , Backstabbin rogue, or w/e other sub specs is VIABLE
you DRuids Will NOT get feral, AND BOOMKIN to be on par with resto.
IN fact the only way to do is NERF RESTO b/c it's (P@*&#@* OP RIGHT NOW

If they buff you guys then WTF R THEY THINKING

THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN WILL NOT HAPPEN !!!!!!1

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The most common argument you see against multi-spec viability is that almost every class has a definite PvP spec, and a definite PvE spec. However, most people don't realize two things about this. The first is that hybrids are not nearly as flexible with their specs as 'pure' classes, and the second is that they are making a faulty analogy in their comparisons between certain specs.

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Bear with me.

'Pure' classes have no problem switching specs for arena. Their gear remains largely the same, as does their playstyle. Rogues still stab, hunters still shoot, mages still pew pew, warlocks still fear and dot and stuff, etc. etc. ad nausium. Their PvP and PvE gear can overlap, and compliment each other. A rogue wearing S3 armor and weapons can use it in PvP and PvE. And the rings, trinkets, and cloaks (looking at you, Dory's Embrace) he earns from PvE can be used in PvP very easily. You rarely see somebody wearing a set of 'pure' Arena and PvP gear. Even warriors going from Arms to Fury don't have to change a whole lot (more than other classes however: switch out some +hit, and change one handers for a two hander).

HOWEVER: for a hybrid to switch between specs, between their 'definite' PvP spec and their 'definite' PvE spec, they have to undergo a MASSIVE gear change and completely change their playstyle. Take me, for example. If I wanted to play Resto in the arena for a week to bump my rating up, I would have to farm AV for weeks (maybe months, on my play schedule) and/or spend my arena points (arena points that I need for other things) for a set of Resto pvp gear, and completely change my prefered playstyle for one that I really don't like. The gear I earn in PvP won't help me in PvE, and the gear I'm earning in PvE doesn't help at all with my efforts in PvP. This makes it very difficult, if not completely unviable, for hybrids to respec for arena.

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You may notice that I didn't include prot warrior at all in my analysis of certain pure specs. "HA! We've got you there. Protection warriors are completely unviable for PvP, and have to go through the same agonizing re-gearing process of hybrids to be viable in PvP."

This is true. HOWEVER in this case protection warrior are obviously and completely a pure PvE class and should not be even considered in any analysis of PvP. This is the faulty analogy that most people use in debunking the calls for viability from hybrids.

Protection warriors are not only required for end game content (I don't know if a prot paladin can tank Kael and Illidan, but I know a feral druid sure can't; and a prot paladin simplifies some fights to the point that they are *almost* necessary) and practically spoon fed gear from every instance in the game (in stark contrast to feral druids) but they also don't even have a PvP set. Conversely, feral druids (whom many call a pure PvE spec in response to our cries for PvP buffs) are so starved for PvE gear that we are practically forced to rely on the S2 and S3 staff for end game DPS, and resilience to become uncrittable in the end game. The set bonus on our S3 gloves is practically made for PvE, considering that it is the only way for us to get a PvE interrupt for mobs like Aran and Gronn Priests (that and the fact that it is broken and doesn't even work right in PvP).

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Now, I'm not asking for all hybrid specs to be monster unbeatable God-like specs that can perform well in any aspect of the game without having to respec, ever. I'm asking for each 'spec focus' for hybrids to be viable (healing, melee damage, spell damage). Like resto druids, we would require a massive respec to play in arena (8/11/42 vs. 0/0/61) but would still be able to play the way we wanted, with the gear we earn.

Add more talents that help us in PvP while NOT helping us in PvE. Our trees will become bloated, but we will be able to get what we want (and what we need) for either PvE or PvP while still being able to play how we want, with the gear that compliments our playstyle.

i.e. http://www.war-tools.com/?p=vt&i=45768

I have been saying this for weeks. I'd be happy if I had to respec for PvP, but still allowed to stay in Feral. Which is what you alluded to by saying a 'bloated' tree with talents for both PvE and PvP.


Anyone who argues against this needs to check their arguments carefully, because he probably covered it in there. Excellent post.

/agree

I agree completely, especially with regards to the prot. warrior. There's no protection-friendly arena gear because it's obviously not meant for PvP; in contrast, there is feral-oriented Arena gear for druids.

Additionally, pure classes don't have to grind out pvp to get the favored gear (i.e. healing), and then use it to get the gear they actually want...in effect, doing the pvp grind twice over.

Kudos for the post, good sir.

Blizzard needs to just make one PvP set for every class, but by clicking on the armor pieces you can convert them to something entirely different, similarly to the Rhok'delar. By clicking on the armor it switches between the resto, feral, and balance sets.

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Q u o t e:
Blizzard needs to just make one PvP set for every class, but by clicking on the armor pieces you can convert them to something entirely different, similarly to the Rhok'delar. By clicking on the armor it switches between the resto, feral, and balance sets.

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This still doesn't address the issue of having to spec resto for PvP when that's not what you've leveled on and are best at. Some few souls actually like to enjoy PvP fights and not just think entirely about gear.

Protection could easily be mildly retooled for pvp, in case anyone is thinking that is a viable reason for them to suck in arena.

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Q u o t e:
Protection could easily be mildly retooled for pvp, in case anyone is thinking that is a viable reason for them to suck in arena.

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They could, thats true.

But if I see a prot warrior set in season 4, I'd better see a piece of leather drop off a boss with defense on it.

So, Noob question here.

Right now, if I want to be viable for both PvP and PvE I need to...

1. Have a full set of PvP gear
2. Have a full set of PvE gear
3. Be willing to respect every time I switch from PvP to PvE and back again
4. Change my play style completely when I switch
5. I need to do loads of PvE to get viable PvP gear
6. And loads of PvP to get viable PvE gear.

Does this sound about right?

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Q u o t e:

Protection warriors are not only required for end game content (I don't know if a prot paladin can tank Kael

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A prot paladin can tank Kael. We had one for us on the first and second kills we got for him.


And I agree in the point that playing a feral compared to a resto is basically like playing an entirely new class.

I hope you guys become viable in arenas more so than you are now. Sam with Boomkin...support to all druid classes.

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Q u o t e:
So, Noob question here.

Right now, if I want to be viable for both PvP and PvE I need to...

1. Have a full set of PvP gear
2. Have a full set of PvE gear
3. Be willing to respect every time I switch from PvP to PvE and back again
4. Change my play style completely when I switch
5. I need to do loads of PvE to get viable PvP gear
6. And loads of PvP to get viable PvE gear.

Does this sound about right?

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Oh, you can still PvP and PvE with one spec.

With my spec I can do anything in PvE very well, and still do alright in battlegrounds and arena.
You would need 2 sets of gear though, especially if you wanted to be able to compete well.

However, if you wanted to be very competitive arena, at the very high ratings, you would have a very, very difficult job doing it as a feral druid.

I hear ya concerning the issue with gear. The gear I am wearing now has served me well in the 10-mans and gruul, but in arena I spend most of the time healing myself take devastating hits than my teammates. However if I work on getting the arena gear, God forbid I heal a raid with no spirit, a near-necessity for resto druids in raids. And yet the pure dps classes in the guild use their arena epics to dish out top dps in these raids, which is all we could expect from them.
Basically, just as the gear being worn from a pure dps class works for all specs and perform equally in pve as they do in pvp, it'd be nice for hybrids to have the same.
Carrying around 3 sets of gear is taxing, and unnecessary.

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Q u o t e:
Blizzard needs to just make one PvP set for every class, but by clicking on the armor pieces you can convert them to something entirely different, similarly to the Rhok'delar. By clicking on the armor it switches between the resto, feral, and balance sets.

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This notion is rather appealing. :)

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Q u o t e:

This is true. HOWEVER in this case protection warrior are obviously and completely a pure PvE class and should not be even considered in any analysis of PvP. This is the faulty analogy that most people use in debunking the calls for viability from hybrids.

Protection warriors are not only required for end game content (I don't know if a prot paladin can tank Kael and Illidan, but I know a feral druid sure can't; and a prot paladin simplifies some fights to the point that they are *almost* necessary) and practically spoon fed gear from every instance in the game (in stark contrast to feral druids) but they also don't even have a PvP set. Conversely, feral druids (whom many call a pure PvE spec in response to our cries for PvP buffs) are so starved for PvE gear that we are practically forced to rely on the S2 and S3 staff for end game DPS, and resilience to become uncrittable in the end game. The set bonus on our S3 gloves is practically made for PvE, considering that it is the only way for us to get a PvE interrupt for mobs like Aran and Gronn Priests (that and the fact that it is broken and doesn't even work right in PvP).

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These same arguments could be made about a feral druid. There are a lot of fights that are MUCH easier with a feral druid OT. Gruul, Fathomlord for tanking the hunter, any fight with adds such as Solarian, Tidewalker. And while a prot paladin can kind of fill that role, they cannot do much else besides tank, whereas a feral can contribute a meaningful amount of DPS while not tanking.

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Q u o t e:
The amount of crying over this could easily equal that of mages. Do you guys really want to be down to their level?

You're basically saying that all druid specs should be arena viable. Well, if Blizzard can do that, why can't they make prot warrior/paladins viable too? What about full destro locks and full survival hunters??

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Heres my response to this

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=4162886388&sid=1&pageNo=1

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Q u o t e:

Oh, you can still PvP and PvE with one spec.

With my spec I can do anything in PvE very well, and still do alright in battlegrounds and arena.
You would need 2 sets of gear though, especially if you wanted to be able to compete well.

However, if you wanted to be very competitive arena, at the very high ratings, you would have a very, very difficult job doing it as a feral druid.

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Your spec would be very mediocre for either PvP or PvE, as would any that attempts to do both (believe me, I've tried). No Feral Instinct means your threat ceiling is going to be very low while tanking. No Nurturing Instincts means you are missing out on a lot of healing fior PvP.

Your spec right now is actually the same as my PvE spec, except that you have points in Brutal Impact and Nature's Grasp instead of Feral Instinct.

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Q u o t e:
These same arguments could be made about a feral druid.

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Including the one about being spoonfed tailor-made tanking gear?

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Q u o t e:
No Nurturing Instincts means you are missing out on a negligible amount of healing fior PvP.

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Fixed.

i agree one thing you might want to add is that there isnt any arena prot gear and there is arena feral gear.

Honestly, be thankful. As a mage, I am pigeon-holed into one roll. I get the elbow-room to spec into red, blue or purple text. You know what I have to do to heal or tank? I get to reroll.

*edit*
Everyone else can spec for DPS - sure, it may or may not be great DPS... but if I could spec for crappy healing or awesome armor... I would be happy to have the option to do so.

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Q u o t e:

But if I see a prot warrior set in season 4, I'd better see a piece of leather drop off a boss with defense on it.

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Heck, I would like to see it at all ever, for any reason.

It's almost as bad as having one dagger, one mace, and one two handed melee weapon upgrade between Karazhan and BT.... Oh wait, there are 10 of each!