Maybe this isn't the best place to post this discussion, and maybe it is. I try to post based on both sides of a conversation, and I'm generally also not really trying to use this as a post to determine how to run a guild--because I'm going to consider running groups the way I always have. I'll also present the "hardcore gamer" stance in a much stronger fashion than I will the opposite stance, and may even take jabs at the opposite from time to time in this post. It's called bias, get over it--I'm not a news agency. But I'm going to take this time to write up just some thoughts on what "guilds" in WoW mean to players and what they are designed to ultimately accomplish.

What is a guild in WoW?

The literal interpretation of a guild in WoW is any player in the game who shares a common "group tag" underneath their name. Having a "guild" allows player access to a special "guild-only" chat, which can usually aid in group finding or other game assistance, as well as simple chat rooms without the hussle of attempting to chat in the game's general channels.

What is a guild to players?

For all players, a guild is a team of players they can identify with. There's some "social" aspect of having a guild tag. Whether it be for noteriety "My guild has the best PVP group on the server" "My guild has killed X boss"; or whether it for simple help when needed? The social aspect of having a guild tag can help in areas of the game that could be extremely difficult to have otherwise. An example would be that extremely powerful enchants are often times difficult to get for the normal player, but easy to get when they have access to the "guild bank". They may find the grouping to be easier and less of a hassle, with guilds capable of having X amount of players on that share similar experience in the game and desire to progress. So a group that may take 2 hours to form with "PUG(Pickup Group) players may only take 15 minutes with a guild group. The runs may be faster, as each player knows and expects what is happening with other players. And a guild may be useful in finding larger, more organized groups for the raiding content of the game.

There are a lot of reasons why people join, create, and hop guilds. And for each player, this is entirely different--but we all can agree on one thing. We want to progress in the game, to accomplish, and be admired. And we'll do whatever it takes to get that.

Now, from MY standpoint here--I have a significant problem understanding the "social" aspects of this game. Now, I've got many friends that I've met at Lanparties and other gaming events. Hell, I've even met fellow WoW players at Quakecon.

But the fact of the matter is, I don't play this game to be your friend. I don't play this game to even like you. I don't play this game to agree with your political and religious tastes. I don't really care about any of that. What directly matters to me when I log into the game is whether or not we're progressing at the rate we should. Whether or not a boss gets downed and we get items. After all, that's what I find the point of me logging into WoW. I don't log in to become anyone's friend--I have friends that I spend time with to relax and "socialize" on the weekends, I don't really need WoW for that.

For all intents and purposes, you and I could pass eachother on the street and never know who the other person is. We could be entirely different people in and outside of the game. I could be this "hardcore gamer @**%*#%" inside the game and outside of the game I can be a complacent, quiet, thoughtful individual that enjoys good debate and conversation. So to me, who you are, what you are, doesn't matter. What matters is your ability to log into the game and help accomplish game-related goals. If you can't, then I need to find someone else who can. If you think it's "wrong" of me, immoral, unethical, unfriendly, anti-social to set these standards--not really. I'm looking at it in the context of the game and the game alone.

When people such as myself create guilds and join guilds, it's with the desire to accomplish and be the best we can at the game. Making friends is entirely second to accomplishing a task at hand. I may belittle you, I may yell at you. I don't really care about you being my friend because in the end, I hit ALT + F4 and I end up with an entirely different life. I'll have my real life AIM friends to chat with, my other internet gaming friends to chat with--and you? Where are you? Nowhere.

Many people might consider me a real @**%*#% for this viewpoint--but not really. It's what I pay money for per month and why I play video games. I meet other people with the same aspirations and accomplishment desire as me. THOSE players become my friends and allies. If you don't share a similar game aspiration, I'm probably not going to want to be your friend because as friends we stand little to gain from friendship. It's not all that different than real life. You choose your

From the player's perspective, he is entirely alone, in a room, starting into a screen and pushing buttons on a keyboard. He is playing the game totally alone.

Some people have a difficult time understanding that the pixels one sees on the screen are controlled by other people, who likely have the same goals and desires for themselves in the game. People playing a real-life game seem to understand this better: there's a strong tradition in almost every culture of "sportsmanship" (whether it be bowing to one's opponent in a karate match, or shaking hands after a baseball game). These things tend to vanish in online games because of the disconnect.

The OP seems to be the type of person that cannot quite bridge the gap. He seems to understand that real human beings are on the other side of the computer, but doesn't really care if they are miserable, or unhappy, or ill-treated. All that matters to him is *his* experience of the game, which is typical and understandable if one is playing a single-player game. If you're playing, say, Civ3 on your computer, do you really care that you've just crushed the barbaric Greeks underfoot? Of course not -- the Greeks on the screen are not real people, only pixels generated by a computer AI.

But in an online game like this one, there actually *are* people behind the characters. People just like you, who want to succeed and progress in the game. There are certain scenarios where I can get behind your proposition -- that it's a game, you play to win, and don't really care about the "feelings" of the people you play with. For example, one should not get too caught up in grief when you kill an opponent in PVP. They are playing for the same reason you are; they lost and you won, and there's no sense in dwelling over it.

But there are plenty of cases where having a value system that is "me first" is really inappropriate, and inexusable. If you join a guild, and gain their trust, and then rob the guild bank in the middle of the night -- that is a breach of trust that is every bit as *real* as breaking into their home and stealing their television. You're not abusing the game, or their character in the game, you are abusing the trust given to you by a real-life human being.

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Q u o t e:
I may belittle you, I may yell at you. I don't really care about you being my friend because in the end, I hit ALT + F4 and I end up with an entirely different life.

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This is your most troubling statement. I don't think people need to be your "friend" but you should have a modicum of respect for other people. It's not about being a "friend" it's about being civilized. Civilized people treat one another with decency and respect -- you do not have to be everybody's friend, but you should try to act civilized.

wow... total apathy. Not unheard of on the net, for sure. (for the same reasons posted above by Ethel)

I don't play WoW to make friends either, but I still *have* made friends. I play WoW to have fun, I thought that was why all of us played it? Getting along with, respecting, and gaining the respect from the people I play with is part of what keeps it fun.

But I see now that some people play it to be "admired"?

I hate to tell you Ako, but I don't think anyone here is "admiring" your apathetic and completely selfish attitude.

Do you work or go to school? Its the same thing.

Life is a game. You log onto work and school. You group with people and get a paycheck or promotion or grades. You spend hours working/playing/talking to them.

If you consider your classmates and co-workers friends and dont consider a guild you raid with 5 hours a day 4-6 times a week friends than you are pretty dumb.

I often see this type of sociopathy in the game. Teenagers, when their brains are still forming and growing, have a different structure in the part of the brain that connects with other people. This self-absorption is entirely necessary for the maturing process. Unfortunately, with the lack of parental and societal controls that counterbalance this sociopathy, the teenager will develop psychopathic behaviors (school shootings), or will never actually grow out of the narcissism, perhaps into the 20s and early 30s.

I am sorry you feel that way OP but that is your choice.

I choose to get to know the people I play with and have met quite a few irl as we share many commonalities both in game and out. I really enjoy the company of those I game with and have a lot of fun with them. I was not a gamer at all until WOW came out, my husband talked me into playing on the 10 day pass he got with the CE and I played along to humor him. 2 years later and I am still playing and although I love the game design, lore and "feel" of the whole world, I am not sure I would play it as a single player game, the human interaction takes it to a higher level and makes the game for me.

it's not a selfish attitude by far. I'm actually one of the most unselfish people in the game, believe it or not. I spend my DKP in my raids majority based on what others would view it as. In this action, I like to gain respect based on the actions I have with relation to the game. When I quit my guild a week after getting a +30 healing enchant from the guild bank, I DE'd epics and returned those crystals to the guild bank (keep in mind, after I gquit). I have lok'amir il romathis and am aiming for an off-hand. As much as I would love to drop my DKP on something like the Qiraji Augur staff, I won't do it because other people in the guild will feel cheated as a result of my spending of DKP on these items. As awesome as it would be for me, it's not necessary.

What I'm mostly concerned with is why people join groups for anything other than accomplishment? These are fictional characters, with fictional roles, in a fictional story, to an online game. As much as we all totally enjoy playing our characters and feel that they are an extension of who we are--it is nothign more than just a game. Yes, it's real people playing on the other side. But you know what? At the end of the day, how many of them will you actually ever see or meet? Probably very few. And I've made my friends in the context of not even being in a guild. You can completely socialize in this game without the necessity of a guild tag. An example is--I have friends on alliance on my realm, I have no alliance characters, and I've even been invited to their parties they throw for the guild. Didn't really level with them--the rivalry in the game turned into a respect of similar tastes to accomplishment in the game.

I'm not really attempting to make a point either way with this post, just using it to see what kinds of responses I'll get. No, I'm not a troll--everything I post is a legitimate viewpoint of mine, not just trolling statements.

As with the statements concerning work. While I'm not going to blast you for equating this game with work (as there are many, many parallels to what we like to do and what we do for work), I will have to state that you really don't have too many friendships at work either. I've met some people at work that I can get along with or share ideas and goals with. But we develop conversation through a mutual understanding and respect of what we're talking about. I work for a tech company, full of geeks. This aspect of socializing is difficult for others to understand--because throughout the entire process of life other people judge immediately by how you dress, how you carry yourself, and the WAY in which you speak.

You walk into an office room--and people are more willing to take your advice if you LOOK like you know what you're talking about than if you actually do. If you're the lazy fat guy sitting up on a stage giving a presentation, or if you're the enthusiastic hyper marketing PR guy up there--people will listen to the PR guy more even if he tells them the product is the best thing in the known world.

It's interesting to see online gaming start to transcend this aspect of socializing, because you start to judge based on the "what" rather than the "who".

Any people who are studying human interaction want to take a jab at this?

When I read the first post my thought was that the OP was a selfish @$$. When I read the OP's second post I thought he sounded less selfish and perhaps I had misunderstood the first post.
So I went back and reread the first post.

QFT:

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Q u o t e:
. So to me, who you are, what you are, doesn't matter. What matters is your ability to log into the game and help accomplish game-related goals. If you can't, then I need to find someone else who can.

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This pretty much sums up what I think is wrong with the OP's views on social interaction. I don't play to make friends either but I do play to have fun. For me having fun is about completing quests, learning how to play my druid and improving my abilities as a player. If I'm in a position to help out a fellow player (wether or not they're in my guild), then great. However, the game becomes a lot less fun when I feel I'm being pushed to level quicker just to help out in raids.

My response to the OP is that if you're hoping to play only with people who can help you advance in the game, good luck.

I'd rather play with people who understand that WoW is just a game and that even if I'm not a high enough level to help out now, by the time I am high enough to help, I'll be a better player for having taken the time to learn how to play my character.

Even though I don't share the OP's point of view, I can understand where he's coming from. Its the kind of attitude that I typify as "hardcore raider" or "progression-centered" and folks who feel this way about the game should definately find eachother and guild together and they will treat each other well (usually).

However, I am motivated by the social aspect of WoW more than the progression. When I log in tonight, as a guild leader with a job, my first concern will be "did everyone have a fun and drama-free day while I was gone" and go to work dealing with issues if the answer is "no".

I don't care what instances were run, what phat loot dropped, and how much closer to MC we are than when I logged off last night. I care about the 70 individual players who have toons in my guild and their gaming experience today. Because I believe that caring about those people and making choices that benefit them all to the best of my ability is what will, in the end, keep most of them logging in and playing their best in each other's company. Some will leave for guilds created at the same time of mine who progress faster because people play more and more focussed on progression. Some will just end up not getting along and part ways. But the majority feel the way I do, that its not just the gear on the toon that matters, its the person behind the keyboard. And so we have a very friendly, very group-focussed guild that generously equips one another. That's all I wanted when I made the charter.

Giving you the benefit of a doubt on the trolling, Ako, I believe you've almost answered your own question. You wrote:

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Q u o t e:
...we all can agree on one thing. We want to progress in the game, to accomplish, and be admired. And we'll do whatever it takes to get that.

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You have, tellingly, left out parts of this statement. To accomplish what, exactly? To be admired for what, exactly?

Do I care whether or not Wytch and Aerte have downed Naxx? Hmm, not so much. Instead I admire them for building a community that works together to achieve its goals - without sacrificing its members' abilities to have Real Life goals.

I think you'll find that many of the people on this board have several avenues in their lives where they can seek accomplishment and admiration - at work, with their husbands and wives and families, at their other various hobbies. For those of us who see that WoW is a hobby, this is (as you like to point out) Just A Game.

Let's repeat that for emphasis - it's Just A Game. There's no one telling us how a guild "should be progessing" or making us accomplish X quest line. Which is why we would not agree that WoW is where we seek "to accomplish, to be admired." And it's certainly why we wouldn't "do anything to get that."

If I wanted to just "beat the game" I wouldn't be playing an MMORPG. The only thing that makes this game superior to say, Halo 2, is the unknown element - that wondrous chaos - of humanity in all its infinite variety. And as long as everyone acts with some modicum of civility to other people (regardless of whether or not they'll ever have to face Real Life consequences) we can all have a good time in this pretty cool playground.

(Acting with decency towards other people regardless of whether or not you know them is the very foundation of a civil society, and a whole 'nother lecture.)

As for why to be in a social/casual guild, see the above. My guildies get that.

I want to see the best definitions of "It's just a game."

I keep hearing this all of the time with no true definition to it. Do you tell that to the people that are making $20K+ off of videogame competitions? Or what about the companies who are paying groups of people to live and train in houses together?

Just a game :)

To the OP: Why are you posting this? Honest question. You made it pretty clear in your first post that you're not going to change your mind, and I think you're unlikely to change the minds of anyone who doesn't see a guild as simply a vehicle for personal progression. So what exactly is your point?

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Q u o t e:
What I'm mostly concerned with is why people join groups for anything other than accomplishment?

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Isn't that kind of a silly question? I suspect you already know the answer, but it's just not how you play. That's cool. There's room for hardcore progression types and casual guilds and everything in between.

Analogies are often flawed, but try this one: Some people play baseball with the goal of being the best team in their league (professional, amateur, whatever). Some people play baseball on Sunday afternoons with their friends, drink a little too much beer, and don't really 'progress' in their game. Now why would anyone play baseball for anything other than accomplishment? :)

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Q u o t e:
Some people play baseball on Sunday afternoons with their friends, drink a little too much beer, and don't really 'progress' in their game. Now why would anyone play baseball for anything other than accomplishment? :)

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<burp> actually a pretty good analogy.

To the OP. When you goto school, make sure that you suck up to all the cool kids, so you can accomplish your social goals. Leave room for one or two smart friends to help you out when you need it. Teachers need their ass kissed on a regular basis.

When you enter the workforce, limit all your friendships to those who can advance you as well. Some people would call this brown-nosing. You know better. Don't waste time and scarce resources on relationships that can't help ypu progress.

There are a lot of folk out there just like you seem to be. You certainly won't be alone.

Ahem.

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Q u o t e:
These are fictional characters, with fictional roles, in a fictional story, to an online game. As much as we all totally enjoy playing our characters and feel that they are an extension of who we are--it is nothign [sic] more than just a game.

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I call shenanigans on the "not a troll" post.

Ako, perhaps reading more of the academic literature about online gaming would help you understand things a bit better.

For example, Dr. Richard Bartle wrote a paper, Players Who Suit Muds (http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm), back in 1990. Though taken from old-school text muds, a lot of it is still relevant today.

In his paper, Dr. Bartle divides players into four categories:

Achievers - people seek to beat the game, by amassing loot or gear or killing bosses.

Explorers - people who try and find out as much about the game as possible.

Socializers - people who's main interests are in interacting with other players.

Killers - people who seek to defeat other players.

Of course, this is a bit simplistic, as most people have elements of each of the four player types. But usually one style is dominant.

Judging from your post, Ako, you are pretty close to a pure Achiever. And there is nothing wrong with that. But you need to understand that other players simply have different aims. I'm a pure Explorer, and what I find fun will be different that what you find fun.

So rather than getting frustrated at people of different types, just accept them for what they are. They all serve a purpose.

None of these archetypes are inherently good or bad. Your awesome raid leader is an Achiever, the guy who comes up with useful new strategies or advice is an Explorer, the guildmaster who holds the guild together is a Socializer, the best PvP'er in the battleground is a Killer. Loot ##*!%s are bad Achievers, drama queens are bad Socializers, griefers are bad Killers. A bad Explorer is one who hoards knowledge, and delights in seeing other people fail because they lack it.

Buzzard,

It's funny that you make such blind assertions about my person in real life as you do my views on the game. Granted, many of them carry over--but even in the workforce I really could care less about the 'person' behind what they're doing.

When I'm the guy on top currently having to fix everything others do wrong, it gets frustrating. Not to go off on too much of a tangent, but I'm the type of person that goes far out of his way to understand all aspects of what he's doing. It has helped me define my job very clearly.


As to the last post regarding the player archetypes.

I don't mind players of all kinds--what I happen to mind are when the players of these other kinds start to try and join in groups. Generally speaking (and not always), it's the achiever looking to amass a guild from the ground up. It's that "social GM" that has that whole social mentality to bringing other players in. The hard part in WoW right now is weeding out the under achieving players to fill your raid with more achievers and explorers. This is the largest problem I see for a vast majority of guilds.

RPG - Typically an Offline Role Playing Game where the player interacts with Computer controlled characters in the digital world to complete the story line or achieve the goal. YOU are the Hero. The Game is there for YOU.

MMORPG - Typically an Online only Role Playing Game where the player interacts with characters controlled by Other Living Human beings. Your character becomes your Avatar in the digital world. YOU exist to create the WORLD. YOU are not the Hero.

The point of playing any MMORPG is the human connection or experience it brings, something that even the best Offline RPGs cannot recreate. For anyone to know what an MMORPG is, and enter that digital world with the opinion of "screw everyone else, as long as I walk away happy" says alot more about them as a person than their game playing habbits.
Even in WoW, an a$$hole is still an a$$hole.

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Q u o t e:
I want to see the best definitions of "It's just a game."

I keep hearing this all of the time with no true definition to it. Do you tell that to the people that are making $20K+ off of videogame competitions? Or what about the companies who are paying groups of people to live and train in houses together?

Just a game :)

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Football is 'just a game' too.

Some people play Kennedy-style flag football in the backyard on a Saturday.

Some people play it in crowded stadiums* and make millions of dollars.

Does that make football not a 'game'?



It's not a 'game' to a professional player who is making millions of dollars doing it.

It is a game to those folks playing flag football in the backyard.


The beauty of WoW is that it's big enough for both types: big enough for the "I want to win at the MMORPG crowd" and big enough for the "Oh look at the pretty scenery" types.

Neither one is better than the other. I agree, that if you're a "I want to win" type (and it seems you are) then you should be in a guild full of "I want to win" players. I would venture to say, however, that a majority of players in this game are not of your mindset, and wouldn't particularly care to group with you (nor, it seems, would you want to group with them).



* My inner prescriptivist nearly died typing that. I don't often have the opportunity to write the plural of stadium, but stadia just doesn't look right here on the forums.

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Q u o t e:
What I'm mostly concerned with is why people join groups for anything other than accomplishment? These are fictional characters, with fictional roles, in a fictional story, to an online game. As much as we all totally enjoy playing our characters and feel that they are an extension of who we are--it is nothign more than just a game...

...Any people who are studying human interaction want to take a jab at this?

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I have friends that I play tennis with.

I have friends that I play billards with.

In my guild, I have friends that I play WoW with.

It actually is that simple.

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Q u o t e:
Buzzard,

It's funny that you make such blind assertions about my person in real life as you do my views on the game. Granted, many of them carry over--but even in the workforce I really could care less about the 'person' behind what they're doing.

When I'm the guy on top currently having to fix everything others do wrong, it gets frustrating. Not to go off on too much of a tangent, but I'm the type of person that goes far out of his way to understand all aspects of what he's doing. It has helped me define my job very clearly.

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Interesting that you criticize my blind assertions - and then pretty much tell me I'm right.

<insert smiley face here>

Here's a hint, and then I'll let it be. Once you get to a certain level, you will likely find your social skills become a lot more important than your technical expertise. You may become frustrated when all those clowns who don't know nearly as much as you do move up the ladder, while you are stuck in whatever niche you are doing - turning the crank.

--
If I were a social scientist, I would truly consider MMORPGs a gold mine.