World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Hemo changes cus its popular?

Excaliber

Cenarius

200. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:21:50 PM PST

Q u o t e:

To clarify we don't simply make changes to an ability because it becomes popular. The changes done to hemorrhage (lowering its damage) is being done because we never intended for hemo rogues to do more damage, rather, our goal was to make the subtlety tree a viable alternative to combat and assassination. What resulted however, was not an increased number of subtlety rogues, but an increased number of rogues going just far enough down the subtlety tree to get hemorrhage.

We intend to tweak subtlety some more in upcoming patches, but ultimately won’t be able to flesh it out until Wrath of the Lich King.

This is where the problem lies you claim you didn't intend to make Hemo damage greater yet you made it 125% damage increase. How does that make any sense at all? If you guys haven't noticed at all most people aren't 41 deep in most class trees most people play halfway down 2 trees cause the specs are much greater overall. Sub tree has been bleeding for more damage since BC release, the hemo change was nice. The only thing that makes it very nice is the 2 AR's.

Fold

< Mischief >

Scarlet Crusade

201. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:22:15 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I dunno about that; I think deceit has something to do with intent, i.e. the self-acknowledged state of the agent's mind when he makes a statement. This is contrasted with mere "misinformation" wherein which you have an inaccurate state of affairs in mind but it doesn't actually reflect negatively on your conscience. Your intelligence, perhaps, but not your morality.

Regardless, inaccurate representations are always a pain in the ass and can even be dangerous and it's certainly never good in customer service.

The funny part to me is why they thought it would be a good idea to respond about the hemo nerf in this fashion in the first place. He definitely kicked a beehive, but maybe it was intentional to gather more feedback...

Kilver

< League of Choo Choos >

Alexstrasza

202. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:22:25 PM PST

Q u o t e:
A druid speaking of balance? HAHAHA!

He must be a boomkin :-P

The best trolls are spec'd in subtlety.
Ignorance is Blizz.

Elghin

< Talladega Knights >

Frostwolf

203. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:22:38 PM PST

Q u o t e:
What is wrong with a hemo build doing competitive damage to a combat build?

The problem is that the poster you are quoting feels that the dev's believe that since Hemo is only a 'lame' 21 point talent, it should not carry the weight it currently does. I don't agree with that logic, but some do apparently.

Look, I've spec'd hemo since I hit 60. That was about a month after the game went live. I've always loved the talent.

We're 'given' SS as our base attack. That's great.

We are then given the 'option' to spend 21 talent points to get another attack that generates continuous combo points. That talent is hemo.

By the logic of the poster you quoted, SS should be total crap.

amirite?

If it's PvP it doesn't count, because it's not a Duel.
And if it is a Duel it doesn't count, because it's not PvP.
Let me contradict myself some more.
I'm an f-ing RETARD!!!
-- Kishkumen

Xoba

< Onibatsu >

Dunemaul

204. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:23:05 PM PST

Does Blizzard have a moron/retard hiring policy and/or quota? Was Eyonix hired because of this policy and/or quota?

WTB intelligent employees who actually know what the fuck they're talking about.

Respond to Ippon's post, thanks.

Blazewrath

< Meecrobs >

Hellscream

205. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:24:02 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Thoughts? Comments? Even if it's, "Down the road, we're going to revamp daggers", that will still provide hope for a number of people. Granted, many more will want an immediate change, however, beggars can't be choosers.

Promising what they can't deliver isn't a good idea

« Dagger enthusiast extraordinaire carbohydrate methamphetamine big words »
« Full-time scrub material, full of negativity and crank »
My Music - http://www.soundclick.com/sanxion7

Odirris

Draka

207. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:25:30 PM PST

Rogues are all about damage, giving us "utility" in our pvp tree is a slap in the face, whom are we supporting in arena? ms warriors? in the arena its all a DPS RACE, not a LOL I CAN BLINK AND CHEAT DEATH..i guess mobility and survival are nice, but unless sub can match, or come damn close to deep combat /assan dps, sub will never be a viable arena spec.

Shimerra

< Giant Censored Robot… >

Mal'Ganis

208. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:25:50 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Just saying trying to put 5 poisons on a target is a full time job. Shiv = *@%!ty damage.

A warrior gets to apply a 50% debuff with 1 attack that does massive damage. I don't know why a druid is spending so much time attacking rogues, you shouldn't have any problem against them at all.

It's finals week, and there is a three hour gap between my English and Math finals by the time I drove home I'd have time to take a dump and head right back to school.

Translation: I'm bored, I have a rogue alt(hence why I'm on these forums), and I just decided to be a d1ck.

I never argued that MS on a 1:1 comparison was inferior wound poison. As for so much time, it's been what 20 minutes so I started posting here and this isn't the only thing i'm read atm:).

"Why do all these rogues want to do "dps like a warrior"? You gave up that ability when you rolled a class that can cheap shot, poison, gouge, vanish, evade..." http://bearsbears.ytmnd.com/

Pazuit

< Genocîde >

Argent Dawn

209. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:26:31 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Promising what they can't deliver isn't a good idea

:\

They keep telling us they're fixing Vanish/Stealth. I don't see a mass exodus happening over that :P

Icosa says:

Q u o t e:

That's gotta be the best conclusion I've ever read on any forum anywhere at any time.

You're welcome.

Shimerra

< Giant Censored Robot… >

Mal'Ganis

210. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:27:26 PM PST

Q u o t e:

A druid speaking of balance? HAHAHA!

A mage QQ AHHAHAHAHA.

Oh wait......... nvm that's normal.

Guess you didn't check the armory skippy^_^, no stupidly easy mode resto in arenas for me.

[ Post edited by Shimerra ]

"Why do all these rogues want to do "dps like a warrior"? You gave up that ability when you rolled a class that can cheap shot, poison, gouge, vanish, evade..." http://bearsbears.ytmnd.com/

Eyonix

Blizzard Poster

212. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:28:34 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I realize that most of the people using the official forums are dumb. Lord knows I've made myself e-famous by bashing them, but do you *honestly* think that any of us are fooled by your posts in this thread?

"People were only going down to Hemo and then stopping!"

Every PvP warrior with 3 braincells has gone down to MS and Second wind since the day TBC launched. If you *really* were trying to prevent "half-treeing" like you claim, that would have been adjusted. Instead, you moved one of the "key" abilities from a different tree INTO the tree they were already using.

Honestly, just cut the crap and give us the real reason. We're not as retarded as you seem to think.

When a class doesn’t feel it’s gaining anything when they spec deeper in a tree (to a 41 pt talent, for example), that is an issue. We tried to accomplish this for warriors with moving death wish to arms, by adding focused will to discipline, etc. The results can sometimes be mixed. There are definitely many more discipline priests now than a few patches ago, but not as many 41-pt talent arms warriors as there were before.

We want there to be more subtlety rogues, and we’re working to improve the tree. One way was to give the tree more damage, through hemorrhage. Unfortunately, that didn’t really improve the tree because everyone just stopped with the AR/Prep spec. What resulted was an increased power of the rogue class as a whole (not just the subtlety spec), which was unintended.

[ Post edited by Eyonix ]

Ayaka

< Future >

Cenarius

213. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:28:46 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Mutilate was intended to give heavy assassination rogues some added use, and to give the overall dagger spec some additional appeal. Instead, many rogues view the requirements and limitations too much and ignore it like the rest of the dagger specs. Our goal should be to improve dagger viability in PvE/PvP, instead of slowly taking away the iconic weapon of a rogue.

Thoughts? Comments? Even if it's, "Down the road, we're going to revamp daggers", that will still provide hope for a number of people. Granted, many more will want an immediate change, however, beggars can't be choosers.

We've waited almost a year for them to buff daggers and not even a word from them on the subject. The Aggression changes is not nearly enough for backstab builds, and does nothing for Mutilate despite the insane micromanagement required to get max DPS from it.

An organization of their resources should be able to do much more in a years time. The 2.3 subtlety changes were finally allowing Rogues some real spec choices instead of 41-44pts into Combat, and now they are nerfing it and pigeon-holing us again. It just makes no sense how they can ignore this for so long.

I find the fact that Combat Swords is the penultimate raid DPS despite any positional or other requires disturbing. And even moreso that Blizzard has done nothing to provide equivilent alternatives.

Hemotherapy

Nazjatar

217. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:32:54 PM PST

Q u o t e:

When a class doesn’t feel it’s gaining anything when they spec deeper in a tree (to a 41 pt talent, for example), that is an issue. We tried to accomplish this for warriors with moving death wish to arms, by adding focused will to discipline, etc. The results can sometimes be mixed. There are definitely many more discipline priests now than a few patches ago, but not as many 41-pt talent warriors as there were before.

We want there to be more subtlety rogues, and we’re working to improve the tree. One way was to give the tree more damage, through hemorrhage. Unfortunately, that didn’t really improve the tree because everyone just stopped with the AR/Prep spec. What resulted was an increased power of the rogue class as a whole (not just the subtlety spec), which was unintended.

So why not Swap Premed and Hemo?

"Combat is good... Just easy... its like the handicap spec for rogues."
My warrior alt
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nazjatar&n=Combatcow

Pulsar

< Unity >

Dragonmaw

218. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:33:24 PM PST

Q u o t e:
When a class doesn’t feel it’s gaining anything when they spec deeper in a tree (to a 41 pt talent, for example), that is an issue. We tried to accomplish this for warriors with moving death wish to arms, by adding focused will to discipline, etc. The results can sometimes be mixed. There are definitely many more discipline priests now than a few patches ago, but not as many 41-pt talent warriors as there were before.

We want there to be more subtlety rogues, and we’re working to improve the tree. One way was to give the tree more damage, through hemorrhage. Unfortunately, that didn’t really improve the tree because everyone just stopped with the AR/Prep spec. What resulted was an increased power of the rogue class as a whole (not just the subtlety spec), which was unintended.

So instead of leaving us with something that was almost an alternative to, despite being weaker than, our cookie-cutter build, the decision was made to make the tree 100% worthless again until you figure out what to do with the second half of it?

I have to commend you on the massive nerfs to Mortal Strike that you also made since Warriors never go past it in the Arms tree.

...wait.

http://overcompensating.com/posts/20050607.html

Ayaka

< Future >

Cenarius

219. Re: Hemo changes cus its popular? 12/12/2007 02:33:25 PM PST

Q u o t e:

When a class doesn’t feel it’s gaining anything when they spec deeper in a tree (to a 41 pt talent, for example), that is an issue. We tried to accomplish this for warriors with moving death wish to arms, by adding focused will to discipline, etc. The results can sometimes be mixed. There are definitely many more discipline priests now than a few patches ago, but not as many 41-pt talent warriors as there were before.

We want there to be more subtlety rogues, and we’re working to improve the tree. One way was to give the tree more damage, through hemorrhage. Unfortunately, that didn’t really improve the tree because everyone just stopped with the AR/Prep spec. What resulted was an increased power of the rogue class as a whole (not just the subtlety spec), which was unintended.

How has the power increased overall? The Combat Hemo builds used in raids were about on par with the dagger builds in DPS. And the AR/Prep builds will just switch to using Sinister Strike instead and be JUST as dominant in Arenas due to having 2 ARs.

Shadowstep with the new Hemo is actually quite fun and very good. I can actually prey on BM Hunters with 80% success now, which is leaps better than what I was able to do as Combat swords or even the Combat hemo build. WIth the Hemo nerf the Shadowstep builds just will not have the raw DPS required to take out most targets in favorable situations.

And again, you are now leaving Hemo *weaker* overall than before you even touched the ability. 110% + Normalization is a loss.

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