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Q u o t e:


To clarify we don't simply make changes to an ability because it becomes popular. The changes done to hemorrhage (lowering its damage) is being done because we never intended for hemo rogues to do more damage, rather, our goal was to make the subtlety tree a viable alternative to combat and assassination. What resulted however, was not an increased number of subtlety rogues, but an increased number of rogues going just far enough down the subtlety tree to get hemorrhage.

We intend to tweak subtlety some more in upcoming patches, but ultimately won’t be able to flesh it out until Wrath of the Lich King.

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So it is OK for pvp warriors to go down the arms tree just far enough to pick up mortal strike?

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Q u o t e:


We intend to improve subtlety so that the tree does serve as a viable alternative to combat and assassination.

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Make ShS's threat reduction higher that ability lets me do too much damage. Or give subtlety rogues a lower cooldown on feint.

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Q u o t e:


Hemorrhage was intended to give heavy subtlety rogues some added damage, and to give the overall tree some additional appeal. Instead, many rogues just went down to the new hemo and ignored the rest. Our goal now is to make further improvements to the tree as a whole, so it has enough appeal and viability to compete with combat and assassination. Major changes will likely not come before the expansion, but we are looking in to more immediate tweaks as well.

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Ok but why are you nerfing hemo and leaving us with a broken tree now as opposed to nerfing hemo and fixing subtlety all at once? We won't even get a free respec when you know 80% of the rogues with hemo are going to go back to combat.

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Q u o t e:
Hemorrhage was intended to give heavy subtlety rogues some added damage, and to give the overall tree some additional appeal. Instead, many rogues just went down to the new hemo and ignored the rest. Our goal now is to make further improvements to the tree as a whole, so it has enough appeal and viability to compete with combat and assassination. Major changes will likely not come before the expansion, but we are looking in to more immediate tweaks as well.

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So basically what you're saying is, despite the fact that the changes made to Hemo were actually lauded and viable, and made the hybrid Hemo Combat build satisfactory as an alternative, you guys still have no idea what you're doing with the rest of the Subtlety tree to keep it from being completely worthless past that point. And thus you decided that instead of actually addressing that problem, you'd nerf the one good thing you guys ever managed to concoct for the Subtlety tree in lieu of empty promises yet again for another batch of supposed improvements to deep Sub some months down the line which will probably once again be mediocre and disappointing.

Am I understanding this correctly?

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Q u o t e:
Make ShS's threat reduction higher that ability lets me do too much damage. Or give subtlety rogues a lower cooldown on feint.

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wtf please die

Backstab and Ambush are HORRIBLE

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Q u o t e:
we never intended for hemo rogues to do more damage, rather, our goal was to make the subtlety tree a viable alternative to combat and assassination.

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The reason that no one specs deep sub is because the damage is far inferior to typical combat / assassination builds (for PvE) and lacks the burst capabilites (ie: damage) that AR / prep grants for PvP. It's fun for world PvP (lol) and BGs, that's it.

Which brings me to the million dollar question: How do you propose to make subtlety viable while keeping its damage terrible? I know my guild isn't begging me (not that I raid anymore) to go sub for the awesome raid utility it offers.

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Q u o t e:


To clarify we don't simply make changes to an ability because it becomes popular. The changes done to hemorrhage (lowering its damage) is being done because we never intended for hemo rogues to do more damage, rather, our goal was to make the subtlety tree a viable alternative to combat and assassination. What resulted however, was not an increased number of subtlety rogues, but an increased number of rogues going just far enough down the subtlety tree to get hemorrhage.

We intend to tweak subtlety some more in upcoming patches, but ultimately won’t be able to flesh it out until Wrath of the Lich King.

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Whenever you spec into any tree, you go down far enough just to get certain abilities. Mutilate rogues go a minimum of 41 points in assassination to get mutilate; HARP go into combat far enough for adrenaline rush and far enough for hemo; CB/Hemo goes just far enough to get cold blood and hemo. This reasoning makes no sense.

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Q u o t e:


Hemorrhage was intended to give heavy subtlety rogues some added damage, and to give the overall tree some additional appeal. Instead, many rogues just went down to the new hemo and ignored the rest. Our goal now is to make further improvements to the tree as a whole, so it has enough appeal and viability to compete with combat and assassination. Major changes will likely not come before the expansion, but we are looking in to more immediate tweaks as well.

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While that is a viable explination, it does not jive with how your handling other classes talent trees. I don't know many warriors that go past mortal strike. What about SL/SL warlocks? Going down a tree just to get one talent is what many classes do for PvP because it's the most effective. Why nerf us and not the other hybrid talent builds?!?

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Q u o t e:
Make ShS's threat reduction higher that ability lets me do too much damage. Or give subtlety rogues a lower cooldown on feint.

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Obvious troll is obvious.

Well, If rogue is going to be fun again, Id want to continue playing lol, thats what I meant.

While you are here a question. What in the world could you do to make subtetly even compare to assassination or combat? I mean prep, hemo and dirty deeds are the only good things in that entire tree, the rest suck.

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Q u o t e:


Hemorrhage was intended to give heavy subtlety rogues some added damage, and to give the overall tree some additional appeal. Instead, many rogues just went down to the new hemo and ignored the rest. Our goal now is to make further improvements to the tree as a whole, so it has enough appeal and viability to compete with combat and assassination. Major changes will likely not come before the expansion, but we are looking in to more immediate tweaks as well.

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Again thanks Eyonix for the feedback and giving us something to look forward too. I still say, just move Hemo deeper into the sub tree.

BTW folks, be-littling the mod doesn't help. He's just the messenger and while we have his attention it would probably do a lot more good to come up with some suggestions.

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Q u o t e:


Out of all the posts about this, you break your silence to an illiterate alt.

Heh.

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Agreed. Of all of the intelligent, well written posts on 2.3.2's Hemorrhage changes this is the one that receives an official response. I find this very discouraging. You aren't looking for straw-manz, are you Eyonix? Please tell us that the PTR's Hemo thread is being closely monitored; there have been a few stellar suggestions there.

Woo I got quoted by a blue.

/happy dance

.........but they nerfed my name...............MY NAME YOU HEAR ME???


what am I supposed to do now


/cry

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Q u o t e:


Hemorrhage was intended to give heavy subtlety rogues some added damage, and to give the overall tree some additional appeal. Instead, many rogues just went down to the new hemo and ignored the rest. Our goal now is to make further improvements to the tree as a whole, so it has enough appeal and viability to compete with combat and assassination. Major changes will likely not come before the expansion, but we are looking in to more immediate tweaks as well.

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but why buff one skill and expect that to make people like the whole tree?

the tree has always sucked you buff a skill and made it good i would take the good skill, not the good tree however

i say this only in the hopes the blizzard devs get ahold of this information and try not to expect people to like a tree because you buff 1 skill and do not make the same mistaking of buffing then nerfing immediately

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Q u o t e:


So it is OK for pvp warriors to go down the arms tree just far enough to pick up mortal strike?

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I want to see a reply to this.