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Q u o t e:
2 questions.

1. ive seen countless posts about how people have done the proc watches on exec and goose, and exec comes out way ahead, while ive never done any of these i assumed that was the case. does anyone have real data they could post cause that would vastly change your %s, if exec is even a little higher proc then goose, then your looking at way different numbers, prob in favor of exec. but like i said i do not know personally if its higher or not.

2. if you know the average AC of your target by class, using the correct point EA in conjunction with exec can end up being way more powerful then goose, like you said against a lock in your conditions theres still 4% AC reductuon left on him, if you 1 point EA after your first finisher your looking at almost 10% increase in dmg. and along with that for leather and even mail, doing the corespoding 3-5 point EA to bring them into the under 1K AC, will again net you the 7-10% dmg increase which again will be more then goose.

just some stuff to think about, i think a very well informed player that knows his enemys AVG AC, using exec with EA, especially imp EA will actually come out to be quite a bit more effective then jsut relying on goose. though if you dont know what your doing, i agree goose is the way to go.

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The elitist jerks forum threads have lots of data posted. But at my own last check they still needed to run more live tests including specials. The data I saw and crunched showed an ~50% uptime when specials where used (the smaller of the data sets) and ~20% with tests using just white hits. So all in all the findings where inconclusive for an actuall proc rate. More data possibly/probably has been added since I looked.

One thing I keep seeing mentioned without #'s to back it up is that execution is supposed to suck vs high armored targets. Seems to me that if we can take a clothy from 2500 to ~300 then adding EA we can take a 10k armored warrior/bear/pally down to ~5k and boost our total dps by ~25% in total on them. Without executioner we'd only be at the ~6k range and still have them with 30+% of damage reduction.

But then again my gernal idea of the #'s/understanding could be off. Would be intersting to see the actual #'s with all the potential armor reduction we now have available.

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Q u o t e:
2. if you know the average AC of your target by class, using the correct point EA in conjunction with exec can end up being way more powerful then goose, like you said against a lock in your conditions theres still 4% AC reductuon left on him, if you 1 point EA after your first finisher your looking at almost 10% increase in dmg. and along with that for leather and even mail, doing the corespoding 3-5 point EA to bring them into the under 1K AC, will again net you the 7-10% dmg increase which again will be more then goose.

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AC for Warlocks and Mages hovers in the 2000-2500 range, Frost Mages typically on the upper end with Ice Armor reaching upwards of 3k. Priests w/ Inner Fire and Rogue/Druid (Leather) sit around 3500-4000 Armor. Once we're all in full S3 gear, with ~1k passive ap + Serrated Blades + 5CP Expose we can assume it's possible to bring all Cloth and Leather classes to zero Armor (or close enough to the point we'd waste most of an Executioner proc).

That said, your proposal still has some problems:

1) Executioner is not reliable penetration. I would say we are better served burning the extra CP or two on Expose Armor, with Mongoose procs, than saving the CP and hoping an Executioner proc does the rest of the job for us. You're relying on Executioner to fully realize your damage potential, whereas the guy with Mongoose already has his target at zero Armor and if Mongoose happens to proc all the better.

2) Against targets with higher Armor (Hunters around 7k, everyone else 10k+), Executioner is less effective than Mongoose anyway, even more so when you consider that these targets have enough Armor you probably won't be using EA on them anyway. Mongoose calcs typically ignore the minor haste it grants, as well.

3) Mongoose aids survivability against other melee with a substantial boost to Dodge (and Armor). Irrelevant in terms of spreadsheet DPS, but a dead Rogue deals no damage. Or you get Spamstrung and can't stick to your preferred target.

Lifesteal 15 agil case closed!

+4 damage, imo

I had heard that Executioner was a 1.48 ppm, whereas Mongoose was 1.34. Not guaranteeing I'm right just relaying what I heard

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Q u o t e:


AC for Warlocks and Mages hovers in the 2000-2500 range, Frost Mages typically on the upper end with Ice Armor reaching upwards of 3k. Priests w/ Inner Fire and Rogue/Druid (Leather) sit around 3500-4000 Armor. Once we're all in full S3 gear, with ~1k passive ap + Serrated Blades + 5CP Expose we can assume it's possible to bring all Cloth and Leather classes to zero Armor (or close enough to the point we'd waste most of an Executioner proc).

That said, your proposal still has some problems:

1) Executioner is not reliable penetration. I would say we are better served burning the extra CP or two on Expose Armor, with Mongoose procs, than saving the CP and hoping an Executioner proc does the rest of the job for us. You're relying on Executioner to fully realize your damage potential, whereas the guy with Mongoose already has his target at zero Armor and if Mongoose happens to proc all the better.

2) Against targets with higher Armor (Hunters around 7k, everyone else 10k+), Executioner is less effective than Mongoose anyway, even more so when you consider that these targets have enough Armor you probably won't be using EA on them anyway. Mongoose calcs typically ignore the minor haste it grants, as well.

3) Mongoose aids survivability against other melee with a substantial boost to Dodge (and Armor). Irrelevant in terms of spreadsheet DPS, but a dead Rogue deals no damage. Or you get Spamstrung and can't stick to your preferred target.

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Here's the biggest thing people keep forgeting in regards to cloth and leather wearers, if you have all that passive armor penetration then 1-5 point EA << 1-5 point eviserate/ks/envenom/deadlythrow.

EA is nice, but it doesn't help lock the player down, or damage them directly. Yes it improves your possible later damage but you potentially let them heal enough/get out of range damage you enough to preventing you from getting the killing blow.

Spending the combo point(s) on something other than EA on clothies can and is often the better option.

It's not like you're killing anyone right out of the opener, can you honestly say blowing your first 4-5cp on an Eviscerate is a good idea? Popping EA will completely remove their mitigation, highly improving your total ["long-term"] damage and making any burst attempts a good 20% more potent. That places a lot more pressure on their healer to keep up than an initial extra 1k damage from that Eviscerate. If there's no healer to be had, Rupture will still tick for at least 50% more total damage than Evisc would do.

KS is a good starting option, but it doesn't deal direct damage either. It's for control and damage mitigation, not so much dealing damage. Looking to deal damage, your best option is to keep SnD up and EA Cloth/Leather or Rupture Mail/Plate. Eviscerate is too weak compared to other finishers to be more than a killing blow, it's not something you blow your initial CP on. DT is purely anti-kite, and an interrupt. ;/

Ignoring the fact you're a 'tard if you use Deadly Poison in PvP for something besides dueling Paladins, Envenom ignores Armor anyway so it's irrelevant to the discussion.

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Q u o t e:
I require a

-Gladiator Icki

At the bottom of your post so that I know it's worth reading.

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wanna @@*@?

wow, lot of stuff to skim through between this post and your other about swords in pvp, Icki. I did math myself for mongoose vs. executioner too, but I only calculated the AP gain from mongoose and executioner was barely better on cloth and worse on anything higher. Plate was awful. Add in the 3% crit and 2% speed mongoose is far superior, given same PPM. Executioner is more a warrior enchant than anything and unless someone brings forward some PPM verification of a much higher PPM, then I'll be going double mongoose.

Oh ya, thx for your thread about how swords are viable in pvp. I definitly didn't want S3 maces and I was only like 65% sure I wanted to pick up S3 swords, despite being 17/3/41, shs/hemo. I am now probably 95% sure on picking them up. I'll try to catch you online sometime and sneak a peak of your swords with mongoose. I only got to see S3 maces with mongoose on the PTR, since that's what I grabbed at the time.

Icki,

The math you have going showing the armor % mitigation reduction from pre to post Executioner (assuming Ar Pen gear) is right, but the relative *dmg increase* you put is wrong--common mistake. You can't simply find the difference in armor % mitigation for the dmg increase.

For example, if I normally hit for 1000, target has 25% mitigation from armor, I would hit for 750. If I did a full talented EA to rip off the armor, i would hit for 1000--but my DMG didn't increase by 25%...it increased by 33%:

1000/750 = 1.33 = 33% increase in dmg

Redo the math for Executioner.


















Answer: 7.5%

Grats on making up numbers. If you read the thread on elitist jerks people have been actually trying to figure out the proc rate for weeks now using actual evidence (instead of just making it up) and have not come to a 100% conclussive answer. So unless you've somehow figured it out (using actual data) all your math is bogus.


Edit: Nice use of the star, though.

The real question is whether my dish is better with white balsamic or dark balsamic vinegar.

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Q u o t e:


Jeez. Every post you make is completely self-absorbed if not rude. It seems like you don't actually believe you're good enough, so you have to act out to convince yourself of your own adequacy. <3 Ignore posts by this user.

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Please point to me to the part of my post where I make mention of myself. The fact of the matter is, his is making a claim that is based entirely on something that hasn't been confirmed yet.

I'll simply keep my Mongoose/Mongoose on my welfare epics. Seeing as I have very little APen (serrated blades + Vindicator's ring = 616 APen I believe), Mongoose seems to work best for me. I believe APen gets better as you stack it, so perhaps if I ever get some T6, Vengeful or some BT/Hyjal (neck, cloak, rings etc.) loot on this rogue, which I don't intend to - I'll keep my Mongoose x2.

But I thank you for the math Icki, even if it is still undocumented.

edit: spelling

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Q u o t e:
I just saved myself some money. :P

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mongoose mats: http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=27984

executioner mats: http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=42974

The mats are almost the same. Executioner with ten less arcane dust and Elixir of Major Strengthx3 ends up making it and mongoose the same price give or take a few gold, so then it really comes down to what you thinks looks the best or what you think will work the best!