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Q u o t e:
The honor decrease is simply another tactic Blizzard is using to try and screw the customer. More play time means more bucks for blizz. Less honor over the same amount of time played = The CEO is getting a new car / home / boat / big simming pool filled with money to jump around in.

I've had my finger hovering over the cancel account button for a while now and my trigger finger is getting awfully itchy.

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My main complaint is that they tried to pull the wool over our eyes with this 'change'.

I cannot comprehend it.

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Q u o t e:
The honor decrease is simply another tactic Blizzard is using to try and screw the customer. More play time means more bucks for blizz. Less honor over the same amount of time played = The CEO is getting a new car / home / boat / big simming pool filled with money to jump around in.

I've had my finger hovering over the cancel account button for a while now and my trigger finger is getting awfully itchy.

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Resorting to false claims of CEO's rolling around in money is an argument of a fool and has been around on these forums since their inception. Your lack of a solid argument, combined with cliche "facts" makes the time you spent typing your response a waste.

It's easy to call Blizzard a greedy corporate entity with deep pockets. It's not like they dont have taxes (for various countries), bills, server hardware, payroll, insurance, and the hundred other operating costs they have to pay for. No, that way of thinking would be too rational.

Explain to me how getting less honor over the same period of time will not result in more played hours.

On second thought, don't. You appear to be arguing for the sake of argument and I hate talking to these kinds of people. Arguments with these people are much like trying to take your cat for a walk.

So, goodbye.

wonder when they will lock this thread?

No explanation yet?

What about for the other BG's and their "bonus" weekend?

I haven't checked out which BG is up this weekend, but will it be worth it to concentrate on the weekend BG or just play whichever ?

Are we going to see the same bonus honor removal from all weekend BG's?

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Q u o t e:


You feel that the situation is disingenuous, however you lump everyone at Blizzard into the same pile of people, all being responsible. Does this mean then that the janitor, secretary, mail delivery person, board moderator, programmer, manager, and even CEO all held the same responsibility in making these decisions? The clear answer is a resounding no.

Your comparison to Amazon is hardly appropriate. Just as not all people are the same, neither are all businesses or products. Amazon sells single products, bundles of products, and services. Blizzard sells single products, bundles of products, and services as well. However you compare the sale of a product to that of a service, which is apples to oranges and unjustifiable.

Still, to address your comparison, the fact is that changes were inherent in the BG system and were expressed before hand on the PTR, Blue posts, and Beta Patch-Notes. Realizing that there would be changes to battlegrounds, which indirectly can effect the amount of honor received, would lead a logical person to realize that they might stand to gain or lose honor, based on those changes. Does that mean that Blizzard took the time to completely fill us in on all the expected changes? No. However, that does not mean that through their ignorance we are immediately granted the title of "Judge, Jury, and Executioner," simply because we pay for the service they render to us, in respect to their employees and activity. They have as much responsibility for their choices as you have for yours, and if you feel that perturbed by their decisions then stop paying for their services and select someone else' to render service to you. You cannot make their decisions for them, nor they for you.



Yes people do plan on and eventually invest numerous hours into the opportunity that is WoW. Here again though we see that these people choose to invest this time just as they choose to do otherwise. And what were "we" sold on? I personally checked the WoW website over the weekend and if you read the text description for the BG Weekends, it states plainly that "honor/faction rewards for performing objectives in that battleground are increased." It does not tell us how much the increase is, where we receive it, or how. Thus, the assumption that numerous people operated under that it was bonus honor, or a percentage, or specialty was erroneous. Bonus honor amounted to an unspecified amount granted to us as users, by Blizzard, for meeting certain goals, nothing more.

Link to BG description: http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/community/ingameevents.html#calltoarms

i directly want to address your statement The simple fact is, it does matter. Your disregard for this fact alone does not change what it is, in and of itself. To define it directly, "An error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment." So then they have made an error in not reporting to us their changes, though the changes themselves are not an error as Blizzard is the service provider and can choose to do as they please in that regard. Thus, if we choose to play in BG and invest our time as such, that was our choice, and is in no way connected to the choice(s), or error(s) that Blizzard made. They are separate actions, that had indirect effects. By ignoring the fact that it was a mistake, you are taking your choice for participating in BG and making Blizzard culpable for the negative effects of that choice even though they are not responsible for your decision.



Your statement itself exhibits the very arrogance you point a finger at, assuming that you are entitled to respect whereas Blizzard is not. That is a personal choice and in no way represents the community feelings or thoughts, no more than statements Blizzard or I would make. And again, you state that they should distribute the honor they removed, but the fact remains that they removed no honor. There was a working assignment of points that has been here-to-for undefined for the community as a whole and as such we can make no claims to. Our lack of knowledge in this issue is perhaps a matter of concern and would warrant an explanation from Blizzard as to how the system works, which Nethaera has already expressed they intend to do. The service they render to you of assigning the extra honor is completely under their control, so to give or not give anything to you is not for you to decide or demand. You pay them, for them to tell you, what they will and will not do for you.



Then what would you have them do? In most societies, an apology is consider grounds for forgiveness and is considered commendable for the parties who erred in judgment as they otherwise are under no obligation to do so. And here we find you ignoring completely your earlier statement by attesting to the fact that it was a bona-fide mistake. They have already expressed the action they intend to take in an attempt to "correct" that mistake. If you're not pleased with the action(s) they are taking then express what other actions you desire them to take, otherwise it can be assumed that you are pleased with their course of action.

In any case my opinion of your argument is that it lacks merit. However, you will no doubt find countless others who would agree with you. And they, like you, would have left their logic and responsibility at the door, in exchange for hubris and impropriety. I do not support the actions Blizzard took that led them to commit the mistake they made, however I do not find any justification for the demands being made of them, save one: Explanation.

-Marteau

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My argument was never an argument for Blizzard's legal or logical responsibility. It was an argument for moral and ethical responsibility, to us as consumers.

We invested time into an activity with an expected outcome. I correlated time to money, arguing that we were purchasing honor with our investment. As far as I'm concerned, time = money.

You argue that we should have expected from a change in AV due to the patch to result in AV weekend being meaningless. From prior experience, I don't see why anyone should have been prepared for and expecting to gain virtually nothing from the weekend. On the contrary, despite past changes to AV, we have been conditioned to expect a level of rewards from our investment in AV weekend.

You attack the perceptions of myself and the majority of the community as having no bearing on the company that is Blizzard. Logically, that is true. No one cares. We, as consumers, were totally let down by a company due to an unannounced change. In most situations, buisiness aren't legally obligated to right perceived wrongs. But Businesses that garner customer admiration and loyalty do so by taking moral and ethical responisbility; not by being legally bludgeoned into doing so.

Blizzard's subscribers feel wronged by what happened. To ignore that is a choice the company makes. They lose our respect and confidence. That doesn't mean we will stop buying their product. But it does change how most of us feel about the company. Don't expect everyone to forgive all with an apology. If someone wastes my weekend and wants to show they deserve forgiveness, don't apologe. Make up for it.

Any chance of BG information this week? It would be great to understand the changes made to how bonus honor weekends work and how to maximize honor in AV specifically. Just a nice blue sticky post underlining the changes would be suitable and time efficient.

So I did some AV on Wed. and it was not AV weekend or bonus honor at the time and yet in a 12min game we still capped all their towers, lost none of ours killed Van and got about 647 bonus honor...about what I was seeing over the weekend in AV for similar situations when it was bonus honor.

Either AV bonus honor is permanently applied in AV or we weren't getting any honor above and beyond that we should have been getting. After just going through all the blue posts, I would say the first is true as it was stated that blizzard saw nothing wrong (in one of the posts) with the bonus honor for AV this past weekend

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Q u o t e:


I appreciate the fact that many people will not or are not interested in taking the time to read what I have posted and simply, I don't care if they read it or not. I post for myself and the hopes that the seeds of wisdom I sew will be reaped fully by others. I don't mind the anger people have, I mind the lack of logic.

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I read your post, and wisdom/logic it is not. You state that the website does not specifically say how much the bonus is for the holiday weekend, therefore we shouldn't be upset when it is changed. This is illogical. They have had the same system for awarding honor during holiday weekends for a long time, and then change it without any notification to us the player base. Anytime they make a change to the system, we should be notified that way people don't waste their time.

To say, "it was an accident it was left out," is a joke. I don't understand how things can be left out of the patch notes. For it to go into the game, someone has to program it. To program it, someone has to be told what needs to be changed. The person that told them clearly knows what changes are being made. Why isn't this person telling the CMs the same thing? And if they are, then why are the CMs not doing their job properly and provide us with a complete list of changes?

You didn't like the analogy the other person put up, so maybe this one will be better. You work for a company. You know how much you get paid from your paycheck. And if you work overtime on the weekends you know you get paid at a higher rate, as is confirmed by the increase you see in your check. Let's say the increase was about 50%. So you go in one weekend, work some overtime, expecting everything to be the same since they haven't told you of any changes to it. Then you get your check and see that it is far less than what you should have gotten. You tell your boss and she says, "Yeah we made some changes to overtime. It is less than what it was before, but you should still see an increase over what you would normally get. Sorry it was a mistake to not let all of the workers know this." Upset, you ask why you weren't told and what the new rate is. She says, "Let me get back to you."

I doubt that you would be happy with that and say, "The pay they render to you is completely under their control, so to give or not give anything to you is not for you to decide or demand."

Now its two days later, its Friday and we still haven't heard anything. I wonder how many people will be tricked into playing whatever BG's holiday weekend it is, expecting the honor to be like it was in the past, only to find out that it has been reduced after they wasted their time this weekend.

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Q u o t e:


It's going to be more likely next week (if all goes well). Sorry. Unfortunately, there are some time constraints among other things that aren't going to make it possible to have it done and out today.

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Is this a joke? How is it that no one knows what changes were made to holiday weekends? Someone has to know. And I know you have a lot on your plate, but we have been waiting for two days (some might even argue 3 weeks since that was when the change was actually made). This thread is at 27 pages, but not deemed worthy of high priorty. There is another BG holiday weekend starting today, and people want to know if it is worth their time to play that BG or if they are better off playing a different one.

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Q u o t e:


It's going to be more likely next week (if all goes well). Sorry. Unfortunately, there are some time constraints among other things that aren't going to make it possible to have it done and out today.

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It takes a week for you guys to explain how honor is calculated in AV?

Are you making this up as you go along?

Here, use this template, just fill in the correct numbers:


Taking an enemy tower or bunker gives you -
Defending your towers or bunkers till end of game gives you -
Killing Drek or Van gives you -
At the end of the game you get -

Bonus Answer:

When it is AV Weekend you also get -

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Q u o t e:


Neth, we can live with that, if you can go ask if any changes have been made to the way WSG bonus honor works?

That is the BG weekend this weekend and I'd appreciate knowing ahead of time if its worth it to even set foot in there. (horrible BG, only done for bracers)

Please let us know at least "WSG has not been changed with the way it awards honor".... that will at least tide us over til next week.


Thanks,
Gumble

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My guess is the same. No bonus.

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Q u o t e:


My guess is the same. No bonus.

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I agree. It seems that BG holiday weekends have gone the way of Flag Day or Boxing Day, just another meaningless mark on a calander.

Thanks for the latest update, looking forward to the info next week.

Make sure it's a sticky, heh heh

cut them some slack. it takes a while to come up with the spin to convince us that it's in our best interest to get virtually no bonus honor.

27 pages of direct firsthand experience from the customers saying it's broken, and Blizz gives the usual "working as intended".


I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

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Q u o t e:


It's going to be more likely next week (if all goes well). Sorry. Unfortunately, there are some time constraints among other things that aren't going to make it possible to have it done and out today.

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Is this a joke? 27 pages of complaints and its takes a week to resolve? Blizzard has really come a long way...

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Q u o t e:


I read your post, and wisdom/logic it is not. You state that the website does not specifically say how much the bonus is for the holiday weekend, therefore we shouldn't be upset when it is changed. This is illogical. They have had the same system for awarding honor during holiday weekends for a long time, and then change it without any notification to us the player base. Anytime they make a change to the system, we should be notified that way people don't waste their time.

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Who says we should be notified? If read all of my post, which it seems you did, then you would have recognized the point that Blizzard does not have to do anything. As such, it would be nice if they notified us, but is not requisite with their provision of the WoW service to us, as consumers.

Directly, it does contain logic. I stated that we, meaning the community as collective, excluding Blizzard employees, do not know the formulas that were, have, and are being used to calculate bonus honor. Bonus honor was/is currently like a black box. We put in our time, effort, and achievements. On the end we receive bonus honor. At no point do we know why, how, or when bonus honor is assigned, thus if we do not know this, how can we demand it? Lack of knowledge precludes us from demanding anything, but an explanation.

The fact was and remains that it was stated in PTR patch notes, the official patch notes, and would have even been evident to those playing on the PTR, which you can choose to do. Thus, at every turn Blizzard informed us there would be changes. Did they tell us all the changes? No. Does that mean that they had not made every attempt to forewarn us about the impending changes? No.

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Q u o t e:


To say, "it was an accident it was left out," is a joke. I don't understand how things can be left out of the patch notes. For it to go into the game, someone has to program it. To program it, someone has to be told what needs to be changed. The person that told them clearly knows what changes are being made. Why isn't this person telling the CMs the same thing? And if they are, then why are the CMs not doing their job properly and provide us with a complete list of changes?

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Every company chooses how to structure itself and so via their chain of command or communication ties, they express to the necessary parties what needs to be changed, and what needs to be said. We do not know what their company structure is and if we did know this, along with their operational guidelines, undoubtedly there would be a better understanding of why these errors can occur. Is it excusable? Possibly. Does it mean we need to treat them as if they are not human beings, with dignity and respect? NO.

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Q u o t e:


You didn't like the analogy the other person put up, so maybe this one will be better. You work for a company. You know how much you get paid from your paycheck. And if you work overtime on the weekends you know you get paid at a higher rate, as is confirmed by the increase you see in your check. Let's say the increase was about 50%. So you go in one weekend, work some overtime, expecting everything to be the same since they haven't told you of any changes to it. Then you get your check and see that it is far less than what you should have gotten. You tell your boss and she says, "Yeah we made some changes to overtime. It is less than what it was before, but you should still see an increase over what you would normally get. Sorry it was a mistake to not let all of the workers know this." Upset, you ask why you weren't told and what the new rate is. She says, "Let me get back to you."

I doubt that you would be happy with that and say, "The pay they render to you is completely under their control, so to give or not give anything to you is not for you to decide or demand."

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My problem lies with the fact that both the previous poster and yourself are comparing "apples to oranges," if you will. If I was supposed to be paid a certain amount and it was less than expected, I would be within my legal and logical rights to demand the difference I was shorted. However, when you pay for a service, that from the get go tells you that they can, have, and will change anything to fit their desire with or without notice you forfeit your legal claim as you have waived that right. Secondly, as I expressed before, if it was known to you or a significant percentage of the subscribers that there would be significant changes to the process whereby you received honor, then would it not be logical to assume that the actual honor received would change as well?

To make a proper comparison, consider the black box idea again. The BG is the black box. I am told that when I put an apple in the black box, I will get 4 apples on the other side, then I can reasonably assume that I will receive 4 apples on the other end. Now, I am told that if I place an apple in the black box, but will receive only 2 apples this time, would it not be reasonable to assume that I will only receive 2 apples, and not the original 4? So saying I placed an apple in the box, if I walk around to the other side, and pull out only 2 apples, do I have any right to complain about the fact I didn't get 4? I was told wasn't I? Thus, the logic applies to this situation, in that we were told there would be changes which could inherently change us from receiving massive amounts of bonus honor, to smaller amounts, i.e. 4 apples to 2.

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Q u o t e:


Now its two days later, its Friday and we still haven't heard anything. I wonder how many people will be tricked into playing whatever BG's holiday weekend it is, expecting the honor to be like it was in the past, only to find out that it has been reduced after they wasted their time this weekend.

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Nethaera has already stated that Blizzard will get back to us as soon as they are able, undoubtedly next week sometime. The idea that people are "tricked" into playing a specific BG is ludicrous. People CHOOSE. When you can accept responsibility for your own actions and others can do the same, then perhaps you can expect that of Blizzard, as you suggest they are unable too. I believe otherwise, but that's just me.

-Marteau