Everyone is saying that Improved Leader of the Pack will be providing the druid's group with 2% hp heal every 6 seconds. In truth, the number is far from that. You get the 2% hp heal every 6 seconds only if you ALWAYS crit immediately after the 6 seconds is over from the previous effect, and this cannot be guaranteed unless you have 100% crits. So with less than 100% crits, what is the average time you will have to wait between ILOTP procs? Fortunately the math is pretty simple.

Ave Time Between Procs = Attack_Speed * Ave_Attacks_To_Crit + 6

Ave_Attacks_To_Crit is basically 1/Crit_Chance, using the mean of an exponential distribution with Lambda = Crit_Chance, where Crit_Chance = Crit_Percent/100%

** Ave Time Between Procs = Attack_Speed / Crit_Chance + 6

Therefore, a cat with 25% crit rate and attack speed of 1.0 will proc ILOTP once every 10 seconds.

Attack Speed can also be calculated for Dual Wielding and energy based special attacks. For multiple attack sources:

Attack_Speed = 1 / (1/Attack_Speed_1 + 1/Attack_Speed_2 + 1/...)

A feral druid (1.0) using shred (4.8) will have an attack speed of 1 / (1/1.0 + 1/4.8) = .8276
With a 25% crit rate, this druid will be procing ILOTP once every 9.3 seconds.

A rogue DWing AQR (2.8) and Iblis (1.6) with sinister strikes (4.0) will have an attack speed of 1 / (1/1.6 + 1/2.8 + 1/4) = 0.8116
With a 30% crit rate, this rogue will be procing ILOTP once every 8.7 seconds.

An arms warrior swinging Ashkandi (3.5) and mortal striking every 6 seconds (6.0), with a crit% of 25% will be procing ILOTP once every 14.8 seconds.

A hunter with Ashje'thul using the 10 second cycle (3 auto-shots, 1 multishot, 1 aimed shot in 10 seconds, average attack speed 2.0) with a crit% of 30% will be procing ILOTP once every 12.7 seconds.

It's rather more complex for a dagger rogue because the chances for crits increases when backstab is used, but we can estimate by doubling the attack speed of the backstabs. A rogue with Perdition Dagger (1.8) and Core Hound Tooth (1,6) Backstabbing (3.0) with a crit% of 30% will be procing ILOTP once every 8.2 seconds.

Let's assume the best case scenario, someone with 100% crit chance and 10k hp. We can expect him to be healed for 0.02 * 10000 / 6 = 33.3 hp per second

Now let's compare against Shadow Priests providing Improved Vampiric Embrace, which is heals for 30% of shadow damage dealt to each party member. In order to beat a Feral Druid providing 33.3hp of healing per second, the Shadow Priest needs to do 111.1 Shadow DPS. Mind Flay (Rank 5) available at level 52 is able to provide 110 Shadow DPS. A level 44 priest combining Mind Flay (Rank 4) Shadow Word: Pain (Rank 6) can provide 115 Shadow DPS.

At the same time, with Improved Shadow Weaving, Shadow Priests will also be providing 5% magic damage increase to the raid (much better than 3% crit to one party), and 20% shadow damage increase to the raid (better than 25% bleed damage increase).

It should be obvious that Improved Leader of the Pack and Mangle's debuff are seriously underpowered in providing Feral Raid viability, compared to what a Shadow Priest can give.

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Q u o t e:


It should be obvious that Improved Leader of the Pack and Mangle's debuff are seriously underpowered in providing Feral Raid viability, compared to what a Shadow Priest can give.

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Yes but a shadow priest cant tank, Doesnt have sustain DPS and making spell casters do more damage smells like a wipe

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Q u o t e:


Yes but a shadow priest cant tank, Doesnt have sustain DPS and making spell casters do more damage smells like a wipe

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A shadow priest can tank fine, seen ppl doing it on raid bosses - those who deny are just not creative or adaptive enough.


Nice calculations Tangedyn, IMHO I think 2% is really too MEEK. come on .. 2% out of 5000HP is like 100 HP healed. It's totally insignificant. If you would like to comment mabe the party members have like 10000HP even its still a 200HP heal only. Is that a lot ?? NO!

If it was given to have like 10% healing 500HP for a player with 5000HP its more viable in my opinion.

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Q u o t e:


Yes but a shadow priest cant tank, Doesnt have sustain DPS and making spell casters do more damage smells like a wipe

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A bit more damage for casters is not equal to a wipe, unless said casters are terrible idiots.
Also, shadow priests not being able to tank has absolutely nothing to do with a talent...

Just drop the 6 second rule and it would be ok at 2%

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Q u o t e:


A shadow priest can tank fine, seen ppl doing it on raid bosses - those who deny are just not creative or adaptive enough.


Nice calculations Tangedyn, IMHO I think 2% is really too MEEK. come on .. 2% out of 5000HP is like 100 HP healed. It's totally insignificant. If you would like to comment mabe the party members have like 10000HP even its still a 200HP heal only. Is that a lot ?? NO!

If it was given to have like 10% healing 500HP for a player with 5000HP its more viable in my opinion.

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Shadow priest can tank ony fine, if its an all priest raid and after one dyes another gets agro. I am talking about end game. Lets see a shadow priest get one shotted by nef.

Also in fights where you need to keep threat low, it wont help at all having a shadow priest there. If one of those casters pull agro its a wipe. Shadow priest have no utility, their mana pool doesnt last and they die quick. Why bring one?

I think it might be better if they dropped the 6-second rule and made the heal some percentage of the damage you deal. That way it would balance across fast and slow weapons much more smoothly.

Thanks Tangedyn, you're my druid maths hero. I had the same thought and posted a half hearted attempt at explaining it but couldn't be bothered going the whole way with the maths.

If the talent instead provided a durationless buff that stated:
"Every 6 seconds ILotP heals you for 2% of your life if you have dealt a critical strike in the previous 6 seconds."

That sounds very similar and some would say amounts to the exact same thing but it is actually very different and it'll be much easier for players to get much closer to the theoretical max of 2% every 6 seconds with this buff than with the current wording.

All very valid points but I still think it' worth it. Much like a paladin's judglemen of light, it's not going to solely heal everyone but it takes the edge off. I have about a 30% crit chance, and bout 3700 hit points in cat form, around 6k in bear form. Now lets say I'm in bear form with an attack speed of 2.5 if i recall correctly. That means I'll heal myself about 120 hit points every 7.5 seconds, and if I'm diving into several mobs, with swipe I have effectivly a 1 attack speed with 3 chances to crit with every attack so I'll pretty much always crit at least once every 1 second not including auto attack. In a solo fight each 120 hit points healed is worth approximatly 12 stamina. One on one fights for me usualyl last about 1 minute. Lets say I mange to land a crit every 10 secodns on average. That's equivelent to about 72 extra stamina for 3 talent points. Only ramping up further on the persute of level 70.

In cat form I'll expect to get about 74 hit points every 6-7 seconds like clockwork. I can time my claw attacks so I build up energy between 6 second intervals and deliver several rapid claws on top of auto-attack. A long boss fight is maybe what? like 5 minutes. lets say i get 1 crit every 10 seconds once more. That's well over 2000 hit points the healer doesnt have to heal me for, asumeing I take an occsinal beating or AoE run-off. That's not including healing others in the party as well. I'd expect in a decent boss fight that those 3 talent points are will save the healer more than a couple thousand mana. A notable edge in a long combat.

That's not to say your talent points are better used elsewhere thoguh, it depends on your play style. But for me, I think it sounds pretty nice.

i hope kalgan and other blizz mods checking for info reads this and sees how BAD ilotp is, its horrible, and its worse than i thought after reading your post

and even in your best case scenario, youd need weapons that hit so fast that youll always hit exactly when you can heal again, which makes it even more irrealistic.

Personally I think the 6 second cooldown works fine, its just that 2% really isn't enough to make any real difference. It should be healing for around 400-500 every time it procs, and to do that it needs to be around 6-7%.

I posted a similar thread a while back on this same subject and came to the same conclusion, with much cruder math. Engineering background ftw.
8.5 s is a reasonable estimate of rogue/fury warrior healing periods, and Imp AotP rates below VE, below JoL, and probably below HEALING STREAM TOTEM. Healing Stream SUCKS. It's a complete waste of 3 points that you could put in nuturing instinct, swap forms, and then rejuve your group for far more total healing.

I hold judgement on mangle. It's aimed at PvP and bears, not cats. It's a complete claw replacement that we really needed in pvp and it might yet be decent in raid with rogues always using rupture, the cat always using rip, and the warriors all using deep wounds. Raid mangle for cats looks like a hemo-type decision. Small loss to the cat for hopefully a nice raid dps buff. Bears, who knows. Depends on the threat multiplier. Most of the new abilities are aimed at pvp buffs, not pve.

doublepost

Here I'll pose some questions to the yaysayers:

Seems like it was posed as a raid talent, albeit an inadequate one.

What bosses have a small damage aoe pulse every few (6) seconds?
In this case imp lotp is quite useful and mana efficient.

What bosses have a medium damage aoe pulse every few seconds?
In this case, supposing a 500-600 dmg pulse, every 6 seconds, imp lotp is mildly useful but insufficient to keep the group up.

What bosses have a large damage aoe pulse every few seconds?
Imp lotp definitely not useful here, as burst is required over longevity/efficiency.

Any encounter with spiky damage will essentially render this talent useless, as does any encounter with a form of medium(120ish+) dps.


Ok, now how about the 5-man instances?
You won't have 4 other physical attack classes with you, rendering imp lotp inefficient/useless for the most part.

Solo pvp?
1) Ok so you're going cat form. Chances are you kill the opponent really quick, or he responds with fire. You can either:

a) die really fast, making imp lotp useless in such a short time interval, or
b) extend the fight, jump out and hot/heal a bit, then jump back in, defeating the purpose of imp lotp

2) Ok bear form, the poster 2 replies behind said in a 1 minute fight, he'd get a crit every 7ish seconds assuming his conditions. 60seconds / (7seconds per crit) = about 8 uses of imp lotp. That's 8 x 2% = 16% of your total hp healed. Say you have a huge hp pool of 9000 in bear form. That's still only 180hps over 6 seconds almost constantly up (total of 1440hps in a min). That's like having a rank 7 rejuv constantly on yourself.

Some people say great! I just effectively added that much more stamina to my hp pool for the fight. Unfortunately that doesn't include overheals. And usually vs a competent opponent, you won't be in bear form for a whole minute straight. And that effectively breaks up the use of imp lotp and makes it inefficient.
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So what does it boil down to? Hey! Blizz just gave us a sweeeet talent to solo grind to lvl 70 with! orly?

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Q u o t e:
I have about a 30% crit chance, and bout 3700 hit points in cat form, around 6k in bear form. Now lets say I'm in bear form with an attack speed of 2.5 if i recall correctly. That means I'll heal myself about 120 hit points every 7.5 seconds,

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I assume you mean 33.33% crit chance instead of 30% since your figures seems to be based on 33.3%
You will crit an average of once every 7.5 seconds, but you will proc ILOTP only an average of once every 13.5 seconds.

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Q u o t e:
In cat form I'll expect to get about 74 hit points every 6-7 seconds like clockwork.

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No you can't. Did you read my Opening Post?

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Q u o t e:
Just drop the 6 second rule and it would be ok at 2%

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Agreed.

Imp LotP gets owned by Tangedyn.

A proc every 8-10 seconds is pretty weaksauce. I was already thinking about passing it up for some stun/fear resist and this seals it. When BC comes out, I expect to mostly be tanking 5-man content and PvPing. No place in either for an aura which only effects combat classes.

Though I would like to point out that it should proc like crazy if you're spamming Swipe against multiple targets. That's why it needs to have the cooldown. At 2% with no cooldown, I could see myself restoring 10% of my health in a 2 second span on a lucky crit string.

Removing the cooldown would be overpowered, with rogues and DW fury warriors critting every 2 seconds.
I believe the best solution would be to make it return a percentage of the damage done each time you crit... so it becomes like some sort of vampiric aura.

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Q u o t e:
Removing the cooldown would be overpowered, with rogues and DW fury warriors critting every 2 seconds.
I believe the best solution would be to make it return a percentage of the damage done each time you crit... so it becomes like some sort of vampiric aura.

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/bow

Seems like the best solution, I could definately go some vampiric aura type deal thing.
Thankyou for this post Tang, great respect for you :)

as a feral druid myself.... i just want to understand why r ppl crying about imp LoTP that much.... there seems to be so much good talent that i cant even think of a good feral build with all i want in it yet.... this sucky 3 point talents just made my life easier on how to spend points... thats it.


if all our talents were godly... that would ba damn hard ot make a good build with all maxed out.

relax its just a talent... some talents r worst then that in other classes... just dont put points in it