**Please, if you found value from this post, request a sticky or bump it so that others may benifit as well. Thank you**


So, I don’t know about the rest of you Ret pallys out there, but I am consistently finding that I need to explain to my guildies why using a Ret pally can be useful. Many, even if they are nice about it, have the prejudice regarding Ret that inflates how poorly it does and is quite off base. I want to share with you guys more directly to give you support on why Ret can be in raids. But before you try it... please... have the gear and knowledge first :) Be ready to prove your stuff before asking for a raid spot. My attempt here is for someone to lay out the reasons why Ret is useful in raids, and from there you guys can cut and paste it to your guild forums when the topic comes up.

This is an honest, non-biased look at the Ret class in a raid environment. It will also be as formulated upon solid math instead of “cuz I think so”.

When doing the math and talking about your raid, the assumed raid group is as follows:

3 Warriors (2 prot, 1 fury)
3 Druids (1 feral, 2 resto)
4 Priests (3 holy, 1 shadow)
3 Paladins (2 holy, 1 Ret)
3 Hunters
2 Shaman (1 resto, 1 Enchancement)
2 Mages
2 Warlocks
3 Rogues

This raid group can obviously vary by guild to guild, so lets not get TOO caught up in the details… it’s just a “normal” 25 man that we can use for this conversation. Sometimes more or less tanking is needed and sometimes more or less AOE is needed. And apparently people can't grasp that priests might be holy instead of shadow. It doesn't matter in the large scope of things with this example. Each group will vary!

So, here we go.


Why Your Raid Should Consider Having a Ret Pally

The Paladin class is meant to support. Therefore, there is a lot going on behind the scenes when you bring your Ret Pally into the raid. If you get caught up in just looking at the Dmg meters of your Ret Pally, you’re missing a large part of the picture.

I. Another Round of Pally Buffs
II. Dmg Buffs to the Raid
III. Light and Wisdom
IV. Ret Pally Dmg
V. The Math behind it all

Keep in mind that throughout all of this, we are not talking about “losing a healer” we are talking about moving out your raid’s lowest dpser.


I. Another Round of Pally Buffs

Back in the days of 40 man raids, it was very simple to have at LEAST 5 Pallys in your raid. Therefore, you were able to have the main 5 of the 6 pally buffs. Kings, Wisdom, Light, Salvation, Might. (the 6th is Sanctuary which only a prot pally would have).

Having your buff bar bloated with these 5 pally buffs was an easy thing to have, however, now that the raid size has shrunk to 25, having all the pally buffs up at once has become more difficult. Most raids now will run with 1-3 Pallys. This forces people to pick the pally buffs that are most important to them and run accordingly.

With a Ret pally, you are able to add another round of blessings. In addition, Ret will bring Improved Might (some, but not all, holy pallys have this). This brings normal BoM from 220 to 264 AP.

Imp. Blessing of Might adds 20% to the 220 AP.

220 + (.2 x 220) = 264AP

264-220 = 44

1 DPS = 14 AP. Therefore: 44 AP adds 3.14 dps per dps class that uses it.

In our example raid, 12 people would use BoM.

12 x 3.14 = 37.68 dps for the raid


An additional 44 AP spread out to your hunters, rogues, warriors, and any other melee dps is a nice buff. This is an additional 37.68 dps for our raid. (keep in mind as well, that this does not include the increased crit dmg and specials from having higher AP! So it could be higher than 37.68!) Not overly significant, but nice non-the-less. Keep in mind too that if you didn't have enough pallys to get might at all, then adding this ImpBoM would be adding an additional 226dps! The main advantage is that having another pally frees up the ability to have that extra round of buffs. Be it Light, Wis/Might, or Salv… any and all are nice to have.

II Dmg Buffs to the Raid


1) 3% Crit to the Raid

This is one of the larger buffs offered by your Ret pally. Because it has been moved up in the talent tree, there has been a lot of talk of having your holy palls pick it up. As someone that has raided for 2 years I can honestly say when I’m spec’d holy, it’s VERY difficult to run in and judge/hit the boss every 20 seconds. It wastes a LOT of valuable healing time. It used to be doable in the MC days... but now that every second of healing counts with 25 mans, keep your holy pallys from moving more than they need to.

As far as a DPS boost, 3% crit adds approximately 2.5-3% more dps to the raid. This is not exact since some classes don’t rely upon crit much at all and some classes get extra benefit from doing crits. In order to save a lot of time and guesswork, I just go with an approx. 2.5-3% increase to your raids dps ( use 3% for the calculations). If your raid does, say, 14,000 dps… that is an additional 420 dps provided by 1 person in addition to their own normal dps.


2) 2% Dmg Aura to the Group

A Ret pally has an aura that increases the holy dmg done by 10% and ALL dmg done by 2%. The holy dmg part really only applies to the pally (since there aren’t many smite priests raiding) but the 2% dmg bonus is a nice little buff for the rest of your group. However, if you're running with a Prot pally, that 10% holy dmg increases the threat ceiling by almost the full 10%!

Assuming a dps’r will do ~1000 dps, there will be a total of 4 other people in the group that will gain a 2% dmg boost. That will add an additional 80 dps to the raid.

Additionally, if you have a Protection Palidan, the use of this aura will increase their holy dmg by 10%, which results in a substantial threat boost.


Summary:

So if we take the ~420 dps + the ~80 dps, the Ret pally will bring approx 500 dps on TOP of their own. And the best part of this type of dmg? It scales with how well your raid does. As your raid improves, the benefit of the buffs from the Ret pally improves as well! Now-a-days high end guilds are having dps pump out 1500-2k dps! The Ret pally now adds ~900 dps to the raid on top of their own!



III. Light and Wisdom

Judgment of Wisdom and Judgment of Light are two VERY effective abilities that no longer get the spotlight they used to. Back in the days of 40 man raids and extended judgments, having a pally run in once every 40 seconds to refresh a seal was A-OK. Now, however, the judgments last 20 seconds and most holy palls can’t afford to run in 30-40 yards to smack a boss once and run back out. It’s just too much lost healing time.

A Ret pally can keep the judgments of Light and Wisdom on a target. With Crusader Strike being on a 6 second cool down, your Ret pally has 3 chances to hit mob and refresh all the judgments on it. Make sure your Ret pally is +hit capped! Keep in mind, of course, that you’ll need 3 pallys in the raid in the first place! 1 for +3% crit, 1 for Light, and 1 for Wisdom.

On average, having wisdom up will add an additional 125.95 Mp5 per person. (check out section V for the math) (Keep in mind, of course, that you need to be HITTING the mob for this to work. So this doesn't nessarily mean mana back for your healers unless a priest wants to wand)

On average, having light up will add an additional 118.75 Hp5 per melee weapon. (check out section V for the math. This one is very reliant upon swing speed)

So to put it in perspective:

126 Mp5 for each person is about 3x the amount of Blessing of Wisdom does.

119 Hp5 for each melee weapon means approx 12, 2.0 swing speed weapons which = 1,428 Hp5.

In a 10 min fight that means (1,428 x 12 x 10) = 171,360 additional healing.

This is quite a bit of passive healing. Obviously, the downside is that some of this will be over healing, and it isn’t “intelligent” healing. In other words, the person about to die is going to be healed the same as someone at 90% health.

IV Ret Pally Dmg

The Damage of a Ret pally used to be very hindered by threat. After a 30% threat reduction in 2.3, this isn't the case. Obviously, you will need to control your aggro like everyone else, but not the dps to threat ratio is much more in line.

On average, your Ret pally is going to be VERY gear and group reliant. Don’t put your Ret pally in the caster group and then say “See, I knew your dps would be lacking!” Instead, put your ret pally in the melee group. Because WF adds so much to a slow 2h, the Ret pally will get a larger boost from being in the group than the a DW will. In fact, because of the dps buffs the pally gets from WF and the group buffs the Ret pally bring to the group, the Ret pally only needs to do 65.8% of the rouge’s dps to be equal. (check section V for the math)


Not all Ret pallys are going to be well geared enough to perform well. When starting 25 man content, make sure your Ret pally has at least 25% crit and 1500AP. (all unbuffed and no BoM). Obviously, gear doesn’t = skill, so make sure you have a solid player behind the keyboard.

Overall, your pally shouldn’t be the leader of the pack. In fact, you should hope that your Ret pally did well and is still on the BOTTOM of the dps meters. This means that the rest of your dps is doing so well, that the buffs the pally brought were being used to their highest level!

Most likely, however, your pally will fall in about the 6-8 range in dps when compared to equally skilled and geared players. Obviously the type of fight will produce varying results.

However, beacuse a Ret's dps is going to be a little below a pure dmg class, I would recommend limiting the number of Ret pallys in your raid to one. Since the buffs are raid-wide, adding more Ret pallys adds very little if no additional utility.

V. The Math Behind it All

First off, this is not all my math. I appreciate the input and math from Dazanna (flyingtoastr) on Elitist Jerks.com and from Sutiru on Ravencrest. I hope you guys don’t mind me referencing your hard work for this post.

Math for Judgment of Wisdom:

These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate for all attacks, spells, and abilities. The rotations used assume a perfect latency of 0 ms. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. Any haste effects, whether passive (+Haste rating) or talented (Flurry) or from item procs (Dragonspine Trophy), are not considered into the calculations. Self buffs are considered into the calculations, but no outside factors (Windfury Totem) are included. All talents/abilities are patch 2.4 versions. Your results will vary.

Chain drinking Super Mana Potions every cooldown equals 100 mp5
Judgement of Wisdom average for all mana users 130.88 mp5

Hunter

All Specs
Rotation 2: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Arcane/Multi Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Attack Speed: 2.44 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 227.46 Mp5

Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, Special Shot, Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal M5 from JoW: 185 Mp5

Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74 Mp5

Arcane
Rotation 1: Arcane Blast x3, Arcane Missiles, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 128.08 Mp5


Shaman
Elemental
Rotation 1: Chain Lightning, Lightning Bolt x3, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 118.40 Mp5


Enhancement (Dual Wielding)
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Earth Shock, repeat
Attack Speed: 2.6 seconds/2.6 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 317.63 Mp5

Enhancement (2 Handed)
Typical Rotation: Stormstrike, Flame Shock, Autoattack, Earth Shock, Autoattack, repeat
Assumed Autoattack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 102.78 Mp5


Priest
Shadow
Rotation 1: Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain, Mind Blast, Shadow Word: Death, Mind Flay x2, Mind Blast, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 92.5 Mp5

Druid
Moonkin
Rotation 1: Moonfire, Starfire x3, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 70.48 Mp5

Rotation 2: Starfire, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 61.67 Mp5

Paladin
Protection
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Judgement of Righteousness, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 1.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 143.89 Mp5

Retribution
Rotation 1: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Command, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 124.23 Mp5

Rotation 2: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Command, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.8 seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 147.32 Mp5

Rotation 3: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Blood, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.5 Seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 106.81 Mp5

Rotation 4: Autoattack, Crusader Strike, Judgement of Blood, Consecration, repeat
Attack Speed: 3.5 Seconds
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 128.39 Mp5

Warlock
Affliction
Rotation 1: Curse of Something, Siphon Life, Unstable Afflicition, Corruption, Shadowbolt, reapply DoTs as needed
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 100.91 Mp5

Destruction
Rotation 1: Shadowbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74 Mp5

Destruction
Rotation 1: Immolate, Incinerate x6, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 86.33 Mp5


Math for Judgment of Light:

Weapon speed:
1.5 seconds = 158.33 Hp5
1.8 seconds = 131.94 Hp5
2.0 seconds = 118.75 Hp5
2.2 Seconds = 107.95 Hp5
2.6 seconds = 91.35 Hp5
3.3 seconds = 71.97 Hp5
3.8 seconds = 62.5 Hp5

Assumed perfect 50% proc rate, perfect 100% hit chance, no haste effects, etc. Duel Wielding should give (theoretically) the sum of the two weapon's effects (e.x. a 1.5 and a 1.8 will give 158.33 + 131.94 = 290.27 Hp5).

Obviously, not everyone would get 100% hit, so numbers wouldn't be AS high as they are.

Rogue vs Ret Pally for WF Math

Note: There is an oversight in my math in that I failed to apply the bonus AP from Windfury. Outside of that error, the following should be accurate.

If we assume that swapping in a Retribution Paladin means swapping out a Rogue, we see the following changes.

The Rogue loses and the Paladin Gains the following buffs:



Battle Shout

Leader of the Pack

Windfury

Strength of the Earth Totem

Unleashed Rage


The Party gains Imp Sanctity Aura.

To summarize, the Rogue loses 510 + 10% of normal AP (assuming 710 total), 5% crit, and 20% MH White Damage, which the Paladin gains. The other four members of the party gain 2% damage.

With a 3.8 speed weapon, a Retribution Paladin will swing 15.8 times a minute. Windfury effectively increases this to 19 times. Seal of Command will proc approximately 8 times during this time.

710 AP will add 78 DPS from the Paladin's MH swings and Windfury Procs, 35.8 DPS from Crusader Strike, and 28 DPS from Seal of Command. Alternatively, it will add 34.5 DPS from Seal of Blood. 5% crit will increase the total of these numbers (using Seal of Command over Blood) to 148 DPS.

In addition, the Paladin gains a 26% (Windfury and Crit bonus) increase to their previous white damage, and a 5% increase in previous Crusader Strike, Seal of Command and Judgement of Command damage.

A Sword Rogue maintaining Slice and Dice with a 2.6/1.4 combination will be attacking with speed 2/1.08. In one average minute's time, they will swing their main hand 34 times (including Sword Spec procs) and their off hand 55.6 times, and Sinister Strike as many as 18 times. Windfury will proc 6 times.

710 AP will add 87 DPS from the rogue's MH swings and Windfury procs, 38 DPS from the OH Swings, and 37 DPS from Sinister Strike procs. The total, factoring in the 5% crit, is 170 DPS.

In additional, the Rogue gains a 26% increase to their previous MH white damage only, and a 5% increase in previous OH and Sinister Strike Damage.

So, we have the following equation.

26% * Paladin White + 5% * (Crusader + SoC + JoC) + 148 + 2% * 4 Person Party = 26% * Rogue MH White + 5% (Rogue OH White + Sinister Strike) + 170

If someone could contribute the stats of an equally geared Sword Rogue and a Retribution Paladin, we could see which is almost factually better. The following, however, is pure assumption.

Assumptions:



The Paladin's DPS is split 50/50 between White and Yellow. [AKA: PW = PY]

The Rogue's DPS is split 50/25/25 between MH, OH and Specials

The Rogue's DPS is 1000 ungrouped.

The Party of 4's DPS is 3750 (another Rogue, a Druid, a Warrior and Shaman).



26% * PW + 5% * PY + 148 + 2% * 4Party = 26% * 500 + 5% * 500 + 170
26% * PW + 5% * PY + 2% * 3750 = 130 + 25 + 170 - 148
26% * PW + 5% * PY + 75 = 325 - 148
26% * PW + 5% * PY = 177 - 75
26% * PW + 5% * PW = 102
PW ( 26% + 5% ) = 102
PW ( 31% ) = 102
PW = 329
PTotal = 658

So, a Paladin in 2.3 can have 65.8% a Rogue's ungrouped DPS while outside the group themselves and be even with a Rogue for being put in the DPS group.

Also, the dual wield specialization talent in the combat tree was not accounted for. (+25% offhand damage), so the dps split for a rogue would be something closer to 45/30/25. This would actually cause a ret pally to need to do less DPS to gain more from WF.

I don't mean to be a naysayer to this post but to make your case for a raid spot you should rely on 2 things:

1) JoW.
2) Standing on your own 2 feet DPS wise.

3% raidwide crit is less than 2% raid dps (if you don't believe me I'll post some math) 2% of 14k is 280, a much less impressive number than you listed. Also (hopefully changed after 2.3) there are few to no raid bosses that allow paladins to keep up other pally's judgement with any sense of reliability.

edit: As requested:

Ret Pally: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lothar&n=Reilly
Fist Rogue: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lothar&n=Blaine

I know you asked for swords, sorry =(

bump in hopes of this becoming an interesting discussion.

This is total win, and should be stickied. Amazing points made and well put together. mad props.

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Q u o t e:



Do you play a 70 ret pally? If so, please post on it.

Re. #2, what does that mean, exactly? In your opinion, does a ret pally always need to be at a certain place on the damage meter or doing a certain DPS regardless of what type of party he's grouped with? Something else? It's unclear what you're trying to say.

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I'm trying to say that you should prove yourself on the meters rather than trying to sell yourself on utility. No matter how much utility you bring you will be a wasted dps slot doing, say, 650 dps. Prove yourself as a dpser and the fact that you add a certain amount of utility will get you a spot EVERY raid.

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Q u o t e:

Do you play a 70 ret pally? If so, please post on it.

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As requested. Sorry i didn't want to switch off my priest, was monitoring some green dots on the priest forum =P

But yes I raid ret (not quite in my current gear, have some pvp gear on for +spell damage for solarien adds). I am an officer of my guild, I joined ret and was promoted while ret, i do 1k-1.3k dps on melee friendly bosses, and i CANT WAIT for 2.3 threat reduction =)

While I'm glad to see Ret get some nice improvements (used to run a 21/0/30 spec back in the day) -

I wouldn't count the 3% crit as being a Ret paladin bonus. Yes, most (if not all) Ret paladins will have it, however... most (if not all) Protection paladins go deep enough into Ret to be able to pick it up as well. And with the tweaks to Protection, some paladins are shifting points around, and may end up with this talent, rather than ImpJudgements. (Also, if a raid is interested in having this talent, it's easy enough for a protection paladin to grab it.)

I'm all for seeing Ret get raid spots though - good luck!

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Q u o t e:
I don't mean to be a naysayer to this post but to make your case for a raid spot you should rely on 2 things:

1) JoW.
2) Standing on your own 2 feet DPS wise.

3% raidwide crit is less than 2% raid dps (if you don't believe me I'll post some math) 2% of 14k is 280, a much less impressive number than you listed. Also (hopefully changed after 2.3) there are few to no raid bosses that allow paladins to keep up other pally's judgement with any sense of reliability.

edit: As requested:

Ret Pally: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lothar&n=Reilly
Fist Rogue: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lothar&n=Blaine

I know you asked for swords, sorry =(

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Thanks for adding some well thought out (and experianced) thoughts.

I am interested in knowing the normal "added" percent that the 3% crit does for the raid. I know not all abilities/classes use the crit inolved, but at the same time, some classes get MORE from crit than others. Do you have a good "average" and how did you come by it? I don't need SUPER in depth math (since I know all of this math has to take a few "assumptions" in it), but I would certainly enjoy learning more :)

/Bump..this is amazing...i love ret so this is a huge help to let people know!

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Q u o t e:


As requested. Sorry i didn't want to switch off my priest, was monitoring some green dots on the priest forum =P

But yes I raid ret (not quite in my current gear, have some pvp gear on for +spell damage for solarien adds). I am an officer of my guild, I joined ret and was promoted while ret, i do 1k-1.3k dps on melee friendly bosses, and i CANT WAIT for 2.3 threat reduction =)

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Reilly :) You like Attonement on my server are two of my unsung heroes as so to speak. Could you please look over my gear and tell me what I am doing wrong? I know you have SOB versus my SOC but even with WF I can only muster about 700 to 800ish dps most of the time even on melee friendly fights. Any kind of advice would help.

Weird... I got more responses in General than I did on our own forums! Although... I got a lot more flaming there too...

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Q u o t e:


I'm trying to say that you should prove yourself on the meters rather than trying to sell yourself on utility. No matter how much utility you bring you will be a wasted dps slot doing, say, 650 dps. Prove yourself as a dpser and the fact that you add a certain amount of utility will get you a spot EVERY raid.

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This type of thinking is wrong and should be discouraged.

You are not raiding by yourself. You are raiding with a group.

If the presence of a single Ret paladin will increase the total raid's DPS over that of bringing in any other DPSer, then it doesn't matter what the Ret paladin's personal DPS is compared to that other hypothetical DPSer.

didnt even have to ask to be ret, the GM asked one say said "hey spec ret this week in BT/hyjal, dont screw it up" been ret ever sense.

First off, A for effort. Good stuff. I like someone who's spent thetime to explain the reasoning.


That said, I thnk you are forgetting a very big factor:

The Prot Paladin.

There is precisely 0 reasons to bring two prot warriros. It's a foolish thing to do unless you are out of tank options. Two types of tanks allows you to pick the tank whos better for the encounter, which equals better progression. The Prot Pally just got a good string of buffs, arguably making him a better choice than a Druid tank.

This is significant because if a Prot pally shows up, Section I was made irrelevant. Another round of pally buffs is accounted for. And there are a choice few that are actually desired vs "nice to have". Once Kings, Might/Wis, and salv are up (That's 3 pallies as there is no need ot overlap wis/might), things like light and sanct are just fluff.

Section II also takes a big hit. Prot pallies already put a minimum of 10 points into ret for delfection .... many will bring 3% crit because of its low cost. And a tank will do even better than a melee player at keeping that buff up as they move away even less often than melee dps.

Now the infamous CS keeping all judgements up theory....

Is just that. Reality is you're going to run out of melee range to avoid an aoe and everythign will need to be reapplied. Or your going to have to stop hitting because threat is too high so everything will have to be reapplied. or an unlucky miss string will happen (still got the base 5%) and everything will get reapplied.

The judgemetns very likely will still drop off and people will still need to runup and add the judgements back.

I dont disagree that they are good buffs, I merely disagree that a retpally can step in and hold all the jugements up no problem. They will still drop unless everything goes flawlessly .... and I dont count on that even in farm status scenarios.