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Nethaera
Blizzard Poster
  • 0. Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:18:36 AM PDT
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We're continuing to refine the raid progression paths in Cataclysm, and we'd like to share some of those changes with you today. Please enjoy!

The first of the refinements being made is that we're combining all raid sizes and difficulties into a single lockout. Unlike today, 10- and 25-player modes of a single raid will share the same lockout. You can defeat each raid boss once per week per character. In other words, if you wanted to do both a 10- and 25-person raid in a single week, you’d need to do so on two different characters. Normal versus Heroic mode will be chosen on a per-boss basis in Cataclysm raids, the same way it works in Icecrown Citadel. Obviously the raid lockout change doesn't apply in pure Icecrown terms though, as this change goes hand-in-hand with a few other changes to raid progression in Cataclysm.

We're designing and balancing raids so that the difficulty between 10- and 25-player versions of each difficulty will be as close as possible to each other as we can achieve. That closeness in difficulty also means that we'll have bosses dropping the same items in 10- and 25-player raids of each difficulty. They'll have the same name and same stats; they are in fact the exact same items. Choosing Heroic mode will drop a scaled-up version of those items. Our hope is that players will be able to associate bosses with their loot tables and even associate specific artwork with specific item names to a far greater extent than today.

Dungeon Difficulty and Rewards
10- and 25-player (normal difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop the exact same items as each other.
10- and 25-player (Heroic difficulty) -- Very similar to one another in difficulty; drop more powerful versions of the normal-difficulty items.

We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people. The raid designers are designing encounters with these changes in mind, and the class designers are making class changes to help make 10-person groups easier to build. Running 25-player raids will be a bit more lucrative, as should be expected, but if for a week or two you need to do 10s because half the guild is away on vacation, you can do that and not suffer a dramatic loss to your ability to get the items you want.

We recognize that very long raids can be a barrier for some players, but we also want to provide enough encounters for the experience to feel epic. For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid. All of these bosses would drop the same item level gear, but the dungeons themselves being different environments will provide some variety in location and visual style, as well as separate raid lockouts. Think of how you could raid Serpentshrine Cavern and Tempest Keep separately, but you might still want to hit both every week.

We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward. We don't plan to impose attempt limitations again though, except maybe in cases of rare optional bosses (like Algalon). Heroic mode may not be open from day one, but will become available after defeating normal mode perhaps as little as once or twice.

In terms of tuning, we want groups to be able to jump into the first raids pretty quickly, but we also don’t want them to overshadow the Heroic 5-player dungeons and more powerful quest rewards. We’ll be designing the first few raid zones assuming that players have accumulated some blue gear from dungeons, crafted equipment, or quest rewards. In general, we want you and your guild members to participate in and enjoy the level up experience.

We design our raids to be accessible to a broad spectrum of players, so we want groups to be able to make the decision about whether to attempt the normal or Heroic versions of raids pretty quickly. The goal with all of these changes is to make it as much of a choice or effect of circumstance whether you raid as a group of 10 or as a group of 25 as possible. Whether you're a big guild or a small guild the choice won't be dependent on what items drop, but instead on what you enjoy the most.

We realize that with any changes to progression pathways there are going to be questions. We're eagerly awaiting any that we may have left unanswered. To the comments!
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  • 1. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:25:22 AM PDT
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Interesting.


Q u o t e:

For the first few raid tiers, our plan is to provide multiple smaller raids. Instead of one raid with eleven bosses, you might have a five-boss raid as well as a six-boss raid.



I just hope that it won't be anything like ToC. Also way to push people to rated battlegrounds...

[ Post edited by Paramedic ]

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  • Stormreaver
  • 2. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:25:25 AM PDT
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nice

||Sentinels|| Romoku's 9 alts ||Stormreaver|| Ainya, Tayaah, Romoku, Arisbetta, Surgespike, Clest
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  • Kalecgos
  • 3. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:25:30 AM PDT
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Nice, major boon to small/casual guilds, and players in larger guilds won't feel obligated to burn themselves out running the same content multiple times per week.

First question that comes to mind is how this will impact people who like to go for 10 man achievements but normally run with a 25 man guild. Will the achievements no longer be 10/25 specific, or will people in more serious raiding guilds have to wait for content to be outdated so they can use their lockouts to get 10 man achieves?

[ Post edited by Putress ]

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  • Dragonblight
  • 5. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:27:11 AM PDT
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Well, as the person above me said, I think this will make raiding guilds extremely unhappy. One of the perks of running and being in a 25 man guild/raid was to have above average gear and special items (BT neck to port, Special mounts, etc) and be able to make people envy you and work hard to get the same items.

You developers seem to think that make all raids easily accessible and clearable is the best for everyone, but I would like you to consider another point of view. Back before these days, people had dreams and items to look forward to doing. I remember me and friends drooling over people's gear and mounts and hoping that one day I would too experience Illidan and Sunwell. Of course it was too hard at the time and only amazing guilds could clear then, but It was giving me something to hope for always ! Later in the expansion, you reduced boss hp by 30%, making ALL the raids a lot more accessible and letting everyone that wanted to see the content (including me!) see it just in time for the next expac. Now, everyone gets to do what they wanna do too fast and then we all get bored ! Everything is given to us so easily that there isn't anything to look forward to in the long run. (Its one of the reasons I am expecting great things from the path of the titans, that was a good idea)

Another thing is the whole 10/25 man concept. If you are going to stick to having the same raid have 10 and 25 versions, at least make sure there is TONS of other things to do for those people that have been doing a lot of raiding until that point. Again, please consider another point of view on the topic. I know that from a resource point of view , its better for merge them both. But what about the game experience? doing a boss with 24 other people, and KNOWING that you can just come back another time and do the same thing with only 9 other COMPLETELY destroys the epicness of raids. It is bad enough now, and will be worse if the loot is exactly the same. Was ZA not a successfull dungeon? Why don't you go back to having separate 10s and 25s. Instead of release a 25 each patch, just release a 10 man here and there and make it a 3 day lockout.

I could talk all day about all this, but I am sure you catch my drift :) One of the main reasons I have been disappointed with the game is the lack of long term goals and dreams, and the loss of epic feeling... Imagine if Illidan was killable by 10 man, or Kael'Thas... WHAT A SIN.

Thanks for reading Nathaeara !

EDIT: After reading some of the first few posts claiming that 25 man will still be awesum because it is more "lucrative", I'd like to add that being force fed more epics and gold is a terribly poor motivational tool that will in NO WAY compensate for the loss of a real 25 man experience.

[ Post edited by Spellia ]

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  • Bleeding Hollow
  • 6. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:27:58 AM PDT
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I like it.

Edit: Thought. With this change, we'd be back at two levels of gear per raid instead of three. And twenty-five man gear won't trivialize ten-man raids.

[ Post edited by Bashram ]


Worgen should have English accents!

Also, support customization with the Appearance Tab!
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20136597138&sid=1&pageNo=1
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  • Cairne
  • 7. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:28:53 AM PDT
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This will remove the problem of the 10m 'Super' group in guild and the people that weren't in it getting in fights with leaders and what not.

Edit; On second thought I may end up just sticking to 10M and waving 25M goodbye. One problem our guild has been having since end of January is that we only have enough people on for the first night (easy bosses) then no one shows up rest of the week. So while we are 12/12 in 10m we sit at a low 9/12 in 25m and we've only gotten the most recent 2 in the last few weeks. So while I may lose out on badges and extra loot chances 25m has to offer in the end I would end up with more seeing as 25m's don't go very far.

Also a Huuuuuuge yay for not having to stick around to do 10m for another few hours after having just spent hours in 25m. Omg I can has a life? Maybe?

[ Post edited by Magey ]

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  • Malfurion
  • 8. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:29:39 AM PDT
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Insert SC2 quote:
"Hell, it's about time."

Win.
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  • Malygos
  • 9. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:32:36 AM PDT
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Very interesting change. Should make things interesting when it comes to the raiding guild landscape.

Here is a question. Will we be able to go back and forth from 10 to 25 man on the same lockout? Say day 1 and 2 we have enough for 25 people, but day 3 of the raiding week we are short so we decide to just take 10 in...can we do that?

[ Post edited by Gadge ]


http://www.malygos.us - Updated realm progression and news tracking for the Malygos realm.
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  • 10. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:32:42 AM PDT
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Awesome news! My 10 man guild may really start to be able to keep raiders and not lose them all to 25 man guilds!! Thanks Blizzard and keep up the awesome work!

http://www.wowhead.com best WoW database out there...

"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will"
-- Mahatma Gandhi
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  • Kalecgos
  • 11. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:33:38 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
However, some people are likely to consider this to be the end of 25 mans.


The end of 25 man pugs maybe, which is probably a good thing. They tend to be a nightmare for everyone involved unless most of the raid consists of alts of a more serious/organized guild.

25s will drop more loot per person (so if you get 1 drop per boss on 10 man, you'd get 3 on 25 for example), so there is still incentive for more organized groups to continue doing 25 man raids.
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  • Frostmourne
  • 12. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:34:15 AM PDT
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RIP 25man Raids.

RIP Large Guilds.

It is much easyer to get 10 good, reliable players then it is to get 25.

Why bother doing 25mans ever again?
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  • Dark Iron
  • 13. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:34:41 AM PDT
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Sweet, I like the changes so far :)


Q u o t e:
The only thing that will stop this industry is if people stop being too lazy to play a video game.




From our favorite green
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  • 14. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:34:48 AM PDT
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Q u o t e:
We do like how gating bosses over time allows the community to focus on individual encounters instead of just racing to the end boss, so we’re likely to keep that design moving forward.

Do not want!

" 'Cry Havoc!' and let slip the dogs of war." - Some Night Elf

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bonechewer&n=Deatheliz
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  • Blackhand
  • 15. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:37:18 AM PDT
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I can't thank you enough Blizzard. This has been a long requested and long overdue change.

I hate to go and assume something but...

I assume this mean we will be able to obtain legendary items/quests via 10 mans as well?



Even if the answer is no let me restate that I can't thankyou enough. It was a great change switching to 10 and 25 man raids with WotLK, but 10 man raiders were clearly second class raiders.

On top of that, all the ludicrous difference in stats on gear between 10 and 25 man. Do you want a sp shield without mana per 5 from the ICC tier? Then you must run 25 man, you have no choice in 10 man.

Seriously Blizzard, thanks, kudos to you for making this change.
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  • Cenarion Circle
  • 16. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:37:23 AM PDT
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the end of 25 mans? Nonsense. They specifically stated that 25 mans will be more lucrative than 10 mans.

I'm on a Whiskey diet. I've lost three days already.
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  • Suramar
  • 17. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:37:35 AM PDT
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Well i think it sucks big time... Won't be much point in putting in the effort to put together a 25 man raid, just slap a 10 man together and get equal loot. Hope there's gunna be enough conent to fill in the raid week unlike atm.... But then again we can always run around bg's for the rest of the week.

/sadface
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  • Cenarion Circle
  • 18. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:37:40 AM PDT
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The same quality but more loot, this sounds very interesting.

And, as a tremendous bonus, this serves to solve on of the primary problems the game suffers from; the tank discrepancy.

Right now, as we level and do heroics and other instances, there is one tank for every 5 people. In a 10 man, there are generally 2 tanks (1 for every 5).

But, the best loot comes from 25 mans, and there we again have 2 tanks, sometimes 3, with 1 tank per 10+ people.

The result being that someone who has leveled as a tank, enjoyed tanking and developed tanking gear, will frequently find that there is simply no place for them. Being able to do 10 many by simply squishing together 2 5 man groups is a big step towards fixing this.

[ Post edited by Talinar ]


It is not who is right, but what is right, that is of importance.
-Thomas Huxley
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  • Thorium Brotherhood
  • 19. Re: Cataclysm Raid Progression Refinements   04/26/2010 08:38:08 AM PDT
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Interesting. I don't raid on this character but from what I have experienced, it looks like these changes are for the better. It took me a little while to fully understand the direction you were heading, but after a couple of thorough reads I think this will ultimately be a better experience for new and large veteran guilds alike. Keep up the good work, thanks for keeping us posted. :D
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