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Q u o t e:
I felt like for priests, mana at the start of wrath was a pretty decent mechanic. If you were conscious of when you used cooldowns, and didn't waste procs you could spend a significant time outside of the fsr. Apparently this was giving us too much mana back... so they changed the way regen works... and now most healers gem for pure throughput and spam like there is no tomorrow. Makes sense to me.

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Well, priest QQ aside, I'd have to say it's awfully convenient how things in tBC and WotLK have lined up. It's difficult to say that raid damage is almost entirely avoidable, save the encounter-specific one-shots. With raid damage being carelessly slewn about the raid, why does it make it astonishing (from a developer perspective) for us to just sneeze AoE heals back at them? Mana won't matter by tier 13 so long as spirit scales each tier, I can promise you that. Encounter design has gotten sloppier and sloppier for the simple reason that the player base has, largely, improved at this game. People don't stand in the fires as much as they used to, and you sure as hell know that the bleeding-edge guilds don't. The only way to make encounters even moderately difficult to a remotely skilled healer is to encourage a spamfest (raid damage sneezing) or a gimmick to inhibit spamming (i.e. Sindragosa). WHEN (not if) mana no longer matters in cat, I'd like to see the blue posts on the issue when people are complaining healing is spammy again.

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Q u o t e:
The best fun i had healing was early bc where mana was an issue. During this time mana essentially became an enrage timer for many encounters, I remember on our first prince kill in kara i chugged about 3-4 pots and we rotated healers in the early phase to make sure we all have a decent amount of mana for phase 3.

Now days when a boss does not go down its usually a 'dps' issue, a 'tank' issue or a 'healer issue' (well most of the time its a raid smart issue but that is not where i am going). When healer mana was an issue it forced everyone in the raid to maximise their performance. It was a collective responsibility to make the fight go as quick and painless as possible and there was a greater raid wide satisfaction in doing it.

The efforts of performance were also more apparent since the obstacle to downing a boss was raid performance as a whole and not some artificial enrage timer. I liked it better when enrage timers and transition timers (tk Kael'thas Sunstrider) were just one of many strategic elements of a fight rather then the be all and end all they have become in wotlk.

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I like this post. I often feel in raids that all we're doing is equipping our gear, and hoping it's good enough to beat the artificial enrage timer. I mean, I know it's more than that, but we're always just performing at maximum, without having to make decisions as to when to use certain abilities. And if we are using our CDs for clutch moments, I find it's more often because of someone's mistake, rather than any particular mechanic affecting the group.

I also enjoyed BC healing. You had to make conscious decisions about what to do, and there was room for communication between healers. Nowadays, you're constantly spamming heals for maximum throughput, with little regard for your mana, and therefore little regard for what spell to use. It feels like a very fake experience, overall. The enrage timer just feel like a bar, that keeps getting raised with every fight, rather than just the one part of the obstacle course it should be.

Great, in the next expac every fight will be like healing General. =( With lots of downtime in between pulls to drink. =(

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Q u o t e:
Running out of mana sucks.

Figuring out a healing style that will let you keep your tank up, without running out of mana, is fun.

Healing skill goes from "Who has the best connection and can get out of fires?" to "Who can plan out how to keep everyone up as efficiently as possible?".

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As I understand it, the necessity of managing mana means that some of the other pressures can be let off in boss fights. That time you spend not casting, in order to build up your mana pool again, could be used to say, observe the fight and people's placement, pull your eyes away from the grid for .1~.2 seconds, or even take a moment to consider the lillies. I wouldn't mind running out of mana, once in awhile, to be perfectly honest.

Right now, healing requirements are so GCD limited that mana has to be a non-issue. If you skip a GCD or two, boom, raid's dead, especially in ten man. It needs to move to a mana limitation, where pacing and coordination is required rather than spamming massive throughput.

To make this work in cata...

- Maximum healing throughput in terms of HP/second needs to stay the same
- Healing longevity at maximum throughput needs to be cut down to about 10-20% of current
- Health pools need to fluctuate more slowly
- Less healing needs to be required

Basically: Incoming damage needs to be tuned for 20-30% of maximum throughput, with mana restrictions preventing us from trivializing fights by running at maximum.

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Q u o t e:
Right now, healing requirements are so GCD limited that mana has to be a non-issue. If you skip a GCD or two, boom, raid's dead, especially in ten man. It needs to move to a mana limitation, where pacing and coordination is required rather than spamming massive throughput.

To make this work in cata...

- Maximum healing throughput in terms of HP/second needs to stay the same
- Healing longevity at maximum throughput needs to be cut down to about 10-20% of current
- Health pools need to fluctuate more slowly
- Less healing needs to be required

Basically: Incoming damage needs to be tuned for 20-30% of maximum throughput, with mana restrictions preventing us from trivializing fights by running at maximum.

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I obviously haven't run any number or anything, but 20-30% of maximum throughput seems on the low side of where I would consider us good. But yeah, I totally get what you're saying.

I think this would also stop fights from having that artificial enrage timer govern everything. There could be more health-detrimental mechanics that would make fights harder for more reasons than just "the enrage timer popped."

Currently, when we down a boss, I'm happy. But for all the wrong reasons. I mean, I'm happy we downed em and we get loot. But I'm even happier that I don't have to be 100% on the edge of my seat, tossing out 100% throughput until the next boss. It's actually exhausting for me, currently, and far less fun than previous instances.

The numbers are probably wrong, but you get the idea behind them.

I'm definitely with you on the edge-of-your seat, 100% stress, all healing bars all the time playstyle. I want to see the fights, look at the boss art, actually play through the content. My guild's ten man run two-heals Putricide due to weak DPS and above-average healers. That fight is exhausting. I don't like playing that hard, I want to actually enjoy the content rather than be in a state of constant panic about health bars. Longer-term concern about mana is fine, but immediate OHGODHEALPLEASECRITAUGH playing is... well, too much.

I have to disagree about the enrage timers, though. If we don't have some obvious DPS requirement, it'll be too easy for raid leaders to fall into the trap of "people are dying due to boss hitting too hard / healers running OOM, let's get some more healers in here" or simply blaming the healers for not keeping everyone up. Enrage timers are a good way to smash the DPS in the face with "Everyone else is doing their job, now stop failing and L2P."

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Q u o t e:

Mana won't matter by tier 13 so long as spirit scales each tier, I can promise you that.

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Eatchoo has noted this a few times in this thread and it deserves some support. Our relative regen has yo-yoed back and forth more times than I can count now. Since the change to make int/spirit interact for regen, it has looked like a nerf of one kind or another that is eventually negated by gear, until the next nerf and then another scale-up of regen. Or we level up and our regen drops, followed by a gear-up and soon we're beyond where we ever were before.

I don't know what the solution is, but it's clear there is a problem. Regen has been broken for a long time. There's nothing we want more than enough mana to win the fight, until we have enough and we don't care any more. I fully expect to be starved for mana when I hit L85, even if things don't change, simply due to the reduction in the regen coefficient in the sqrt(int)*spirit regen formula. I'll get it all back as my int/spirit continue to climb.

So what happens? If we go to static regen as a % of mana then we might as well just get energy or focus bars. Maybe we need something new or different like the rune rotation of death knights, except we priests already have that in the form of our cooldown-limited spells.

There isn't actually a reason not to make mana more like energy. Energy users are balanced around their constant resource, and there isn't a reason why mana-based casters can't be.

I always thought that mana regeneration as a scaling mechanic was slightly odd. To me it seems a better idea to have mana regeneration be fairly constant as we progress through content, with the size of our pool dictating how long we last. This stops there from being break-even points where mana no longer matters, as it will always matter - we can just go longer in better gear.

Energy is a small pool, with fast regeneration, and abilities that take between 30% and 60% of the pool.
Mana should be a large pool, with slow regeneration, and abilities that take between 1% and 3% of the pool.

The whole mana management issue has me confused and feeling impotent.

In an ideal group mana isn't a problem and the encounters are an orchestrated battle where everyone does their job well, and it's challenging and fun to keep in sync with everyone.

In a "real" group where most of the game is played, (imho), the encounters are a fumbled attempt to figure out how to play your best with random unknown players who may or may not be doing anything right.

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The main problem I currently face when dungeon running is, I hold back using mana unless it's an important heal to keep someone alive because:

If I run low on mana the group gets ANNOYED and/or ANGRY that they have to wait for me to drink.

Even if no one says anything, you can see them figgiting, jumping, etc, while you snipe glances at the gorgeous dungeon graphics to get some bearing on your location before you have to go back to monitoring green bars again.

So I don't use mana even when I could because it MIGHT cause problems with the group dynamics.

THIS IS NOT FUN.

I want to participate, but hold back because mana is finite, isn't an energy I can regen at will, and if I run out I become WORTHLESS, and a DEAD WEIGHT to myself and to the group.

* * * *

I really hope GC is reading this thread. I think this might be one he'd get a lot out of. <crosses fingers>

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Q u o t e:
The whole mana management issue has me confused and feeling impotent.

In an ideal group mana isn't a problem and the encounters are an orchestrated battle where everyone does their job well, and it's challenging and fun to keep in sync with everyone.

In a "real" group where most of the game is played, (imho), the encounters are a fumbled attempt to figure out how to play your best with random unknown players who may or may not be doing anything right.

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The main problem I currently face when dungeon running is, I hold back using mana unless it's an important heal to keep someone alive because:

If I run low on mana the group gets ANNOYED and/or ANGRY that they have to wait for me to drink.

Even if no one says anything, you can see them figgiting, jumping, etc, while you snipe glances at the gorgeous dungeon graphics to get some bearing on your location before you have to go back to monitoring green bars again.

So I don't use mana even when I could because it MIGHT cause problems with the group dynamics.

THIS IS NOT FUN.

I want to participate, but hold back because mana is finite, isn't an energy I can regen at will, and if I run out I become WORTHLESS, and a DEAD WEIGHT to myself and to the group.

* * * *

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Given the limtitations and design of the game, in an ideal situation and with the right knowledge and skill, you should not run out of mana. And if you do run out of mana, well...I hate to perpetuate a meme, but, you're doing it wrong. That's the way healing used to be.

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Q u o t e:
Given the limtitations and design of the game, in an ideal situation and with the right knowledge and skill, you should not run out of mana. And if you do run out of mana, well...I hate to perpetuate a meme, but, you're doing it wrong. That's the way healing used to be.

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What fantasy land do you play in? *grin*

I'm doing pugs here, and the horror stories of runs gone wrong are VERY common. I'm usually adept enough to see the signs and drop out of really bad groups, but I've stayed with some rather messy and chaotic ones for the practice. So in 60+ level dungeons, where you don't have all your spells (no Divine Hymn, mana fiend, etc), running out of mana is possible. Just tonight, Ramparts (normal!) ran with a group of 3 DKs, one rogue and all took enormous damage because they insisted on taking on multiple groups. After every pull I had to drink. Had 4 wipes anyway because the sorta-tank DK took more damage than I could heal, even spamming heals nonstop on him. (Renew ticking, FL and even attempts to GH if time allowed.)

Some groups are going to be difficult and mana draining. I'm willing to play a challenging game, but to be fun, and mana to be FUN to manage, not to be LACKING TOTALLY.

* * * *

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Q u o t e:

You've got half of the puzzle there. Here's the other half:

Imagine you have 3 heals: normal, big and fast. The big heal is expensive and the fast heal isn't very efficient.

In your 1st tier, healers use their normal heal. The others are reserved for emergencies. In subsequent tiers, their regen is such that they can afford to branch out more into the expensive big heal and the inefficient fast heal. But while that is happening, the encounters are stepping up too. You'll need the fast heal sometimes because the damage is coming in too fast. You'll need the big heal more because sometimes you have to get someone back from the brink in a single GCD. Fortunately, as you approach the final tier, your mana regen is such that you can handle not casting your base heal as often.

The problem currently is that efficiency is a pretty low concern given that if you don't land a heal right this second, someone may die, and your chance of running out of mana is pretty low in the first place. There is every reason to just use the inefficient flash heal. Likewise, health is too low (relative to damage) so the big heal is just overhealing. And someone can probably flash your target up before you finish that long cast.

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Ghost I'm not sure I see what's wrong about a model like Holy Paladins are using at the moment.

Between Divine Plea, Seal of Wisdom, Judgement of Wisdom...we manage our own mana regeneration and it's completely a YMMV situation. The more you learn the encounter, the more you find creative times to use Divine Plea or melee the boss for extra mana. I guess my point is that Paladin regen is ACTIVE and not simply "sit there and regenerate the same amount of mana no matter what you cast or what choices you make". Spirit is a totally brainless stat, it just sits there trickling away. No matter how strong you buff it, it will always be boring.

Personally I think that's the model (Holy Pals) you should be striving for in Cataclysm. The mana game is fun, going OOM isn't fun. I pride myself on boss encounters where I generate 90k mana from Seal of Wisdom (don't nerf me bro) because it means that through my knowledge of the fight and positioning and aggressive playstyle, I was able to do 90k extra mana worth of healing...if I just sat around casting spells, I wouldn't have that mana.

The mana game isn't BAD, but you need to put the tools into our hands and make it more engaging. Imagine if let's say Smite restored 5% of your mana...if TONS of healing needs to be done, you can't afford to cast it, but when you're able to get a few off here and there, you extend your mana bar and are ultimately in control of your own OOM fate. YOU control how much mana you regen or don't regen.

Active regen, not passive. I think that extremely key. We should be unable to OOM if we play properly and 'game' the mana regen system as much as possible. All healing classes need fun and interesting ways to restore their mana other than "press this button every 3 mins or the world ends". It's WoW, not LOST :)

All I remember from Vanilla and BC was chugging mana pots on cooldown to not OOM.

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Q u o t e:
The problem currently is that efficiency is a pretty low concern given that if you don't land a heal right this second, someone may die, and your chance of running out of mana is pretty low in the first place. There is every reason to just use the inefficient flash heal. Likewise, health is too low (relative to damage) so the big heal is just overhealing. And someone can probably flash your target up before you finish that long cast.

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In Vanilla and BC, Flash Heal was the mana inefficient "oh crap heal" and was really one of the those heals you chain cast.

Down ranking Heal, Greater Heal, etc. and casting the right rank on the tank was how we kept our mana efficiency up.

Like you listed said above, Greater Heal just doesn't fit in right now cause of the current healing scheme. But, how can Flash Heal fit in if Greater Heal is going to be the top choice again?

Like, what are you expecting to be a filler between COH cooldowns if a Holy Priest is raid healing?

Also, are you going to be killing Renew / Rejuv spam with the mana / health incrementation?

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Q u o t e:
All I remember from Vanilla and BC was chugging mana pots on cooldown to not OOM.

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Well that's what Vanilla and BC was like, you're not remembering incorrectly.

The real question is this; if it's engaging and challenging to be a DPS player who never has to worry about going OOM, why wouldn't you think the same to be true of healing?

(And for the record we still can run OOM even at this advanced stage of a severely overscaled expansion.)

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Q u o t e:


Ghost I'm not sure I see what's wrong about a model like Holy Paladins are using at the moment.

Between Divine Plea, Seal of Wisdom, Judgement of Wisdom...we manage our own mana regeneration and it's completely a YMMV situation. The more you learn the encounter, the more you find creative times to use Divine Plea or melee the boss for extra mana. I guess my point is that Paladin regen is ACTIVE and not simply "sit there and regenerate the same amount of mana no matter what you cast or what choices you make". Spirit is a totally brainless stat, it just sits there trickling away. No matter how strong you buff it, it will always be boring.

Personally I think that's the model (Holy Pals) you should be striving for in Cataclysm. The mana game is fun, going OOM isn't fun. I pride myself on boss encounters where I generate 90k mana from Seal of Wisdom (don't nerf me bro) because it means that through my knowledge of the fight and positioning and aggressive playstyle, I was able to do 90k extra mana worth of healing...if I just sat around casting spells, I wouldn't have that mana.

The mana game isn't BAD, but you need to put the tools into our hands and make it more engaging. Imagine if let's say Smite restored 5% of your mana...if TONS of healing needs to be done, you can't afford to cast it, but when you're able to get a few off here and there, you extend your mana bar and are ultimately in control of your own OOM fate. YOU control how much mana you regen or don't regen.

Active regen, not passive. I think that extremely key. We should be unable to OOM if we play properly and 'game' the mana regen system as much as possible. All healing classes need fun and interesting ways to restore their mana other than "press this button every 3 mins or the world ends". It's WoW, not LOST :)

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I was a little caught off guard with how much I agreed with this post. I genuinely enjoy the paladin model for regen. However, I can understand GCs point as well considering the paladin model is balanced around casting virtually nothing, but out large expensive heal over and over.