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Q u o t e:
In the next minor content patch, we will be making some minor alterations to the way in which the internal balance system for Wintergrasp works in an attempt to better support realms with greater variations in the level of participation between the Alliance and Horde. Since we have never gone into much detail about how this hidden system currently works, we’d like to explain exactly how it will work in the next patch. Keep in mind that, although this information may feel very new to you, the actual changes being made in the patch to the current system are relatively minor.

Here are the key systems in place behind the hidden Wintergrasp advantages and how they will function in the upcoming patch:

• There is an internal tug-of-war scale not visible by players which will shift under specific conditions.
  
• The scale starts at 0 (neutral) and can move up to 700 points in either direction favoring the Alliance at one end, and Horde at the other.
  
• This scale is persistent and does not reset to 0 whenever control of Wintergrasp shifts.
  
• If an attacking force captures Wintergrasp Fortress while under the effects of any of the advantages listed below (400-700 points in their favor), the scale tips 100 points in favor of the opposing faction.
  
• If a defending force successfully defends Wintergrasp Fortress two battles in a row, the scale tips 100 points in favor of the opposing faction.
  
• Each consecutive successful defense after a faction’s first two consecutive defenses will further tip the scale 100 points in favor of the opposing faction.
  
  
  • As a quick example, if the scale is at 0 and the Alliance capture Wintergrasp fortress while attacking, the scale will not move. If the Alliance defend Wintergrasp twice in a row after this, the scale will move 100 points in favor of the Horde. Each consecutive defense by the Alliance after this will move the scale 100 points further in favor of the Horde each time, bringing the Horde to 400 points in their favor after one unsuccessful defense and five unsuccessful attacks, a total of six Horde losses in a row.
    
    
  • As another example, if the scale is at 400 in favor of the Horde and they capture Wintergrasp fortress while attacking, the scale will move 100 points in favor of the Alliance. If the Horde defend Wintergrasp twice in a row after this, the scale will move 100 points in favor of the Alliance. Each consecutive defense by the Horde after this will move the scale 100 points further in favor of the Alliance each time, bringing the Alliance to 100 points in their favor after one unsuccessful defense and five unsuccessful attacks, a total of six Alliance losses in a row.
  
  
• The following advantages are provided at the beginning of the battle for Wintergrasp whenever these corresponding ranges on the scale have been reached:
  
  
  • 0-300: No advantages granted.
    
  • 400: Faction starts with the Sunken Ring Factory under their control.
    
  • 500: Faction starts with the Sunken Ring and Broken Temple Factories under their control.
    
  • 600: Faction starts with the Sunken Ring and Broken Temple Factories under their control and gains access to Catapults after earning 1 kill in battle.
    
  • 700: Faction starts with the Sunken Ring and Broken Temple Factories under their control and gains access to Catapults, Siege Engines, and Demolishers after earning 1 kill in battle.

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Why not just have WG battlegroup based instead of realm based? Open VOA to everyone.

Edited to say... Open VOA to everyone.Yes. But leave everyone flagged to have some fun meeting stone PVP action.

Was hoping for a change. Although I've been enjoying the constant WG control on my server, the empathetic wuss in me feels bad for the opposing faction who never see VoA.

Here's to hoping it provides a noticible difference and brings the control of WG closer to balanced.

An interesting plan, the one thing that I don't understand is the bonus at 400 points. Wouldn't it make more sense for the factory under attacker control to be faction-dependent? For example, the Horde starts with Broken Ring (if they're the attackers) and the Alliance starts with Sunken Ring (if they're the attackers).

There is no changes listed here is there? This is how it works now. So knowing this... WG on Dragonmaw is tipped towards alliance since we always get full rank after one kill. This still doesnt help us when were outnumbered, and horde defend it pretty much all day. What changes are planned to balance WG.

any plans to make tenacity actually worth something vs. overwhelming CC?

edit:: OH! you should totally buff the damage and healing output of those riding in the demo passenger seat.

wg is still far too laggy to take seriously, nice try blizzard.

The trouble is that none of these changes address the issues that realms with large differences between Alliance / Horde numbers actually have.

Let me make this point in the form of a question: Suppose Alliance outnumber Horde 5:1 in WG, and have defended successfully enough times that Horde gets siege after 1 kill. How does getting siege after 1 kill actually translate into better Horde odds, when A) The towers will go down fairly quickly because the southern workshops can't be held due to the faction imbalance; and B) The siege engines will be absolutely wrecked very shortly after being built, before doing any building damage, due to being zerged?

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Q u o t e:

700: Faction starts with the Sunken Ring and Broken Temple Factories under their control and gains access to Catapults, Siege Engines, and Demolishers after earning 1 kill in battle.[/ul][/ul]

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I don't understand why there needs to be this extreme of a handicap. if the realm is that unbalanced, why aren't free transfers being opened up instead of making WG worse?

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Q u o t e:

The trouble is that none of these changes address the issues that realms with large differences between Alliance / Horde numbers actually have.

Let me make this point in the form of a question: Suppose Alliance outnumber Horde 5:1 in WG, and have defended successfully enough times that Horde gets siege after 1 kill. How does getting siege after 1 kill actually translate into better Horde odds, when A) The towers will go down fairly quickly because the southern workshops can't be held due to the faction imbalance; and B) The siege engines will be absolutely wrecked very shortly after being built, before doing any building damage, due to being zerged?

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This man speaks the truth. I was excited when I saw the thread title, only to find out these changes are akin to slightly dulling wolves' teeth while doing nothing for the sheep.

ultimately the balance is constantly shifted towards whichever side has more population tenacity and this help somewhat, but do nothing to help 40 people vs 120. The problem with this kind of world pvp is how unpredictable it is and server population severely affects this most servers have one side constantly winning over and over again. does anyone have any thoughts on how to fix that issue.. perhaps a tenacity debuff to the side that has more players?

This is a start, but not enough.

- Give sieges aura buffs for ground support.
- Tenacity needs to effect CC

There are a lot more suggestions out there.

Solicit ideas from your player base.

This is a good step but not enough. I like the progressive and persistent nature of the changes: a single win doesn't reset you back to even footing. Repeatedly losing more than you win gives you an advantage even when you win sometimes.

That said, it's not enough. I know the 700 point advantages seem huge. But if you're heavily outnumbered on a regular basis, even if you start with more workshops, even if you start with vehicles, it's quite possible the other side will have plenty of people to blow up your 16 vehicles and still have 1-2 roaming teams that can quickly take back everything and leave you with 0-4 easily hunted vehicles.

The heart of the issue isn't starting conditions. A head start in a drag race isn't enough if you're racing a dragster vs. a golf cart. The issue is the population imbalance. Anytime you face 120 vs. 30ish, you'll see this problem. Even if the servers aren't 4:1 you end up with numbers like this because people get tired of losing 75-95% of the games. If you continue to allow 120 people to queue on one side and only 30 queue on the other (due to population or lack of hope), the 120 side can overcome almost any head start the losing team gets. People like to win. Race changes have meant a lot of people swapped to the winning side. Those of us who have friends or don't want to move just queue less because there isn't much reward to getting repeatedly killed in your own graveyard.

Tenacity isn't enough to make up for imbalances. Tenacity doesn't keep vehicles alive. Tenacity doesn't stop 40 people from CC'ing 15 people while they kill the only 5 people who can move. Tenacity doesn't let you cap a workshop when you're outnumbered 3:1.

Also don't forget that gear has become lopsided on these servers. If one side wins almost every WG they will have so much more honor and gear from Wintergrasp marks, Stone Keeper Shards (WG and heroics), more weeklies completed (I haven't finished victory or southern sabotage in weeks) and more HKs.

Personally I'd like to see the rewards also do something to how well you can
a) Get past the horde of defenders (more vehicle hp, faster vehicles, longer range or something like that on successive losses, lower damage and/or no rpgs for successive wins).
b) Hurt the walls quicker (more vehicle damage, weaker walls, etc).
c) Recapture workshops even if you're heavily outnumbered.

Or you could just balance the raids: adding 20 people at a time on each side only when the other side is similar. Better yet would be to instance the zone with even numbers so it's fair and doesn't lag out the world server. On my server we usually lose to horde in BGs because Horde is better. But at least in BGs where it's 15v15 or even 30v40 we have a chance at winning.

It's too bad you're announcing these changes as new when they're really the same system with a different rate of severity.

It's good to know you realize the past system wasn't enough. Some of us were lucky to have had access to vendors or voa more than a few times in a week, let alone during our playtimes. If you can't balance WG, at least make the vendors and VOA available for people on those servers.

At least the system is in place to further tweak things should this not be enough. But it doesn't seem you're in a hurry to change it. By the time this gets fixed we'll probably all have received our honor gear and VOA drops without WG.

We can hope that just the perception that you're more likely to win will get more people to queue. Having more people join and giving those people a sense of purpose may have more of an effect than all of the above advantages.

Now disabling RP-GGs when the other side has tenacity, or reducing their effect would probably be more to the point, but still, can't really complain hehe.

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Q u o t e:


I don't understand why there needs to be this extreme of a handicap. if the realm is that unbalanced, why aren't free transfers being opened up instead of making WG worse?

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Here's why:

1) it is this bad. My server is not alone in that there is a vast pop imbalance (in our case, 3-4 alliance per Horde) that makes WG all but unwinnable for the smaller faction barring serious, coordinated action by our raiding guilds.

2) Guilds don't leave realms easily. Individuals have an easier time, but a few extra Horde here and there or a few less alliance really won't make a difference

3) Why would anyone chose to a) leave the server if you're the on the dominant side or b) come to the server if you're on the much smaller side?

Fact of the matter is Blizzard's decision to allow free transfers, regardless of faction and it's resultant impact on faction balance, is one of the reasons why Horde on my server are fewer in number now than when the server, a Day 1 server, was released.

how to fix WG.
1. tenacity increases resistance to stuns
2. give us a way to heal vehicles, either through tools or a new vehicle

Make Tenacity increase movement speed of siege vehicles