World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Cata changes with itemization.

Healio

< Dominion Of Mordor >

Bladefist

0. Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 12:10:48 PM PST

Correct me if I am wrong. I thought that stats were being dummied down so it was easier to make choices with gear etc. However, for melee the two most annoying stats will remain on the gear. Hit and expertise, the two stats most melee make posts about wondering how much they need etc. This is confusing to me because if you wanted to dummy the stats down why would u include those two and not armor pen or attack power?

With casters, intellect is the most boring stat, and I think most of us agree that your making a mistake by removing spell power. Spell power is the most interesting stat casters have because of damage modifiers and things that increase spell power. Changing it to intellect makes rolling a caster alot more boring. "oh hey i'm up to 4000 intellect" doesn't sound as cool as "oh hey i'm up to 5000 spellpower". What is it that made devs decide it was the other way around?

Lightsend

Mannoroth

1. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 12:14:33 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Correct me if I am wrong. I thought that stats were being dummied down so it was easier to make choices with gear etc. However, for melee the two most annoying stats will remain on the gear. Hit and expertise, the two stats most melee make posts about wondering how much they need etc. This is confusing to me because if you wanted to dummy the stats down why would u include those two and not armor pen or attack power?

With casters, intellect is the most boring stat, and I think most of us agree that your making a mistake by removing spell power. Spell power is the most interesting stat casters have because of damage modifiers and things that increase spell power. Changing it to intellect makes rolling a caster alot more boring. "oh hey i'm up to 4000 intellect" doesn't sound as cool as "oh hey i'm up to 5000 spellpower". What is it that made devs decide it was the other way around?

My understanding is that casters are being changed because they are extremely hard to tune and scale poorly without constant attention from Developers. While it may not "sound cool" to say you have x amount of intellect you can rest assured this is without a doubt better for casters in the long run.

As for hit and expertise, its really a means of preventing melee dps from stacking raw dps stats without thought.

Healio

< Dominion Of Mordor >

Bladefist

2. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 12:18:15 PM PST

Q u o t e:

My understanding is that casters are being changed because they are extremely hard to tune and scale poorly without constant attention from Developers. While it may not "sound cool" to say you have x amount of intellect you can rest assured this is without a doubt better for casters in the long run.

As for hit and expertise, its really a means of preventing melee dps from stacking raw dps stats without thought.

They said they are changing spell power to intellect because spell power was a boring stat, not because they are hard to tune.

The point of dummying down stats is so you CAN stack raw dps stats without thought. Thats what this whole gear itemization thing is about.

Kwami

< Emotionless >

Staghelm

3. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 12:29:29 PM PST

Q u o t e:
They said they are changing spell power to intellect because spell power was a boring stat, not because they are hard to tune.

Eh. Just think of it this way.

There are three damage stats in the game: Strength, Agility, Intellect. Each class uses one of them.
There is one stat for health (esp. for Tanks) called Stamina.
There is one additional stat for healers called Spirit.

Q u o t e:
The point of dummying down stats is so you CAN stack raw dps stats without thought. Thats what this whole gear itemization thing is about.

No, that's not it. In fact, they still want choosing gear to be interesting and not always obvious. They're removing stats for various reasons.

Armor Penetration: This stat is so complicated that GC actually posted the internal formula on the forums and most people still don't understand it. Besides that, it's very hard to balance because it's just godly for some melee classes and horrible for others. They want to shrink that gap somewhat.

Spell Power: Why not just use Intellect instead? This makes casters analogous to every other DPS class in the game as they all scale from a base stat. SP wasn't doing anything that Intellect couldn't do.

Attack Power: My understanding is that this stat will still exist on some minor pieces (rings, etc.) but be entirely absent from major pieces (chest, etc.). One reason for this is to make leather and mail suck for plate DPS. The other is that again, Agility and Strength are already +AP stats. Why have another one?

There are others, but I think these are the three that are most relevant to this post. What about hit and expertise? Again, the developers still want selecting gear to be an interesting part of the game. Remove our cappable stats and the process becomes extremely dull and mindless.

Lightsend

Mannoroth

4. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 12:34:20 PM PST

Q u o t e:

They said they are changing spell power to intellect because spell power was a boring stat, not because they are hard to tune.

The point of dummying down stats is so you CAN stack raw dps stats without thought. Thats what this whole gear itemization thing is about.

Actually no you can't just stack raw stats without thought.

Intellect is because casters don't have a raw stat they scale with but still absolutely require them. Both Intellect and Spirit have always been in a weird place, especially in pvp since they are your main regen/longevity stats, but are completely unstackable because you absolutely need spellpower.

And if you think this will change how casters gem, then your a fool. Casters will still have to gem hit and spell penetration in pvp, and no caster in pve ever gemmed intellect besides Holy Paladins. (Who I will admit could get hillariously OP with this when it initially drops)

Edit:
Holy @@** the Mage above me understands how this will work.

[ Post edited by Lightsend ]

Calmer

< Clear Blue >

Saurfang

5. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 12:37:57 PM PST

Hit and Expertise should be combined into one stat IMO.

Full of fun facts to know and tell.

Lightsend

Mannoroth

6. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 12:39:24 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Hit and Expertise should be combined into one stat IMO.

Melee scales well enough as is

Calmer

< Clear Blue >

Saurfang

7. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 12:44:34 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Melee scales well enough as is

I was thinking you'd have a higher effective cap too... i.e. you'd knock misses off the table entirely, then parries/dodges.

Full of fun facts to know and tell.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

8. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 01:15:40 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Correct me if I am wrong. I thought that stats were being dummied down so it was easier to make choices with gear etc.

Actually, we aren't trying to make gear choices easier. We like when it's a hard call on whether to upgrade vs. stick with what you have, etc. In designer parlance terms, that is an "interesting decision." Non-interesting decisions are typically no-brainers.

We want to remove some of the confusion over a complicated stat system, which we think we can do without reducing the system's depth. In fact, the other motivation for the stats overhaul was to solve some of the problems where a certain stat trumps all or a certain stat is always junk. If we nail that, then gear choices will actually be harder in Cataclysm, not easier.

As an example, when you aren't close to a crit cap and when buffs don't provide so much crit and talents don't provide so much crit, then haste vs. crit can be a pretty interesting choice. Haste lets you cast spells faster, but crit makes those spells you cast hit harder. At a very basic level you are choosing more spells vs. bigger spells, but because of a number of other factors, it's not that cut and dried. Haste may provide a dps increase for a caster according to a spreadsheet, but it depends and it might cause you to change your rotation. If you have spell A that hits so hard that you need to use it on cooldown, and spell B gets boosted by haste, then you can run into the situation where more haste on B isn't an improvement because you can't squeeze in another B before it's time to use A again. If you aren't able to capitalize on the extra haste, then more isn't always good for you. (That's in an ideal world. The way stats work in Icecrown, if you like haste, it's nearly always a no-brainer stat for you.)

Comparing armor pen vs. say attack power is much mathier, because they really just both buff melee damage in pretty much the same way. The only time it matters is when you're near a cap or if you're a spec that does a lot of spell damage. But you learn pretty quickly for your spec whether armor pen is an awesome stat for you or just an okay stat.

Many of your gear choices in Cataclysm should come down to haste vs. crit vs. mastery. You may still have one of those you like the most, but it shouldn't be double the value of the other stats, so you may have to look at the total package of stats on that item (Do I need more hit? If I take that hit, can I swap it out somewhere else?) Add in set bonuses and procs, and I'm not sure the gear choice will be all that easy, but it should be easier to understand.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Taugosz

< Sad Panda >

Smolderthorn

9. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 01:19:06 PM PST

I think that keeping itemization from scaling so damn high will help. The heroic 2H sword from 25 man LK has 114 expertise, which is ridiculous to gear around.

I would also really like to never see any more gear with both hit and expertise on it.

Seithan

Muradin

10. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 01:20:57 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Actually, we aren't trying to make gear choices easier. We like when it's a hard call on whether to upgrade vs. stick with what you have, etc. In designer parlance terms, that is an "interesting decision." Non-interesting decisions are typically no-brainers.

We want to remove some of the confusion over a complicated stat system, which we think we can do without reducing the system's depth. In fact, the other motivation for the stats overhaul was to solve some of the problems where a certain stat trumps all or a certain stat is always junk. If we nail that, then gear choices will actually be harder in Cataclysm, not easier.

As an example, when you aren't close to a crit cap and when buffs don't provide so much crit and talents don't provide so much crit, then haste vs. crit can be a pretty interesting choice. Haste lets you cast spells faster, but crit makes those spells you cast hit harder. At a very basic level you are choosing more spells vs. bigger spells, but because of a number of other factors, it's not that cut and dried. Haste may provide a dps increase for a caster according to a spreadsheet, but it depends and it might cause you to change your rotation. If you have spell A that hits so hard that you need to use it on cooldown, and spell B gets boosted by haste, then you can run into the situation where more haste on B isn't an improvement because you can't squeeze in another B before it's time to use A again. If you aren't able to capitalize on the extra haste, then more isn't always good for you. (That's in an ideal world. The way stats work in Icecrown, if you like haste, it's nearly always a no-brainer stat for you.)

Comparing armor pen vs. say attack power is much mathier, because they really just both buff melee damage in pretty much the same way. The only time it matters is when you're near a cap or if you're a spec that does a lot of spell damage. But you learn pretty quickly for your spec whether armor pen is an awesome stat for you or just an okay stat.

Many of your gear choices in Cataclysm should come down to haste vs. crit vs. mastery. You may still have one of those you like the most, but it shouldn't be double the value of the other stats, so you may have to look at the total package of stats on that item (Do I need more hit? If I take that hit, can I swap it out somewhere else?) Add in set bonuses and procs, and I'm not sure the gear choice will be all that easy, but it should be easier to understand.

In other words the system is not getting easier. It's just going to get more involved and will allow end-users access to a wider variety of gear.

Lightsend

Mannoroth

11. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 01:24:04 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Actually, we aren't trying to make gear choices easier. We like when it's a hard call on whether to upgrade vs. stick with what you have, etc. In designer parlance terms, that is an "interesting decision." Non-interesting decisions are typically no-brainers.

We want to remove some of the confusion over a complicated stat system, which we think we can do without reducing the system's depth. In fact, the other motivation for the stats overhaul was to solve some of the problems where a certain stat trumps all or a certain stat is always junk. If we nail that, then gear choices will actually be harder in Cataclysm, not easier.

As an example, when you aren't close to a crit cap and when buffs don't provide so much crit and talents don't provide so much crit, then haste vs. crit can be a pretty interesting choice. Haste lets you cast spells faster, but crit makes those spells you cast hit harder. At a very basic level you are choosing more spells vs. bigger spells, but because of a number of other factors, it's not that cut and dried. Haste may provide a dps increase for a caster according to a spreadsheet, but it depends and it might cause you to change your rotation. If you have spell A that hits so hard that you need to use it on cooldown, and spell B gets boosted by haste, then you can run into the situation where more haste on B isn't an improvement because you can't squeeze in another B before it's time to use A again. If you aren't able to capitalize on the extra haste, then more isn't always good for you. (That's in an ideal world. The way stats work in Icecrown, if you like haste, it's nearly always a no-brainer stat for you.)

Comparing armor pen vs. say attack power is much mathier, because they really just both buff melee damage in pretty much the same way. The only time it matters is when you're near a cap or if you're a spec that does a lot of spell damage. But you learn pretty quickly for your spec whether armor pen is an awesome stat for you or just an okay stat.

Many of your gear choices in Cataclysm should come down to haste vs. crit vs. mastery. You may still have one of those you like the most, but it shouldn't be double the value of the other stats, so you may have to look at the total package of stats on that item (Do I need more hit? If I take that hit, can I swap it out somewhere else?) Add in set bonuses and procs, and I'm not sure the gear choice will be all that easy, but it should be easier to understand.

I know I won't get an answer to this, but will mastery be appearing as a gear stat? If so how exactly will it work?

Also thank you for the post.

Angua

< Tribal Moonshiners >

Llane

12. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 01:33:55 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I know I won't get an answer to this, but will mastery be appearing as a gear stat? If so how exactly will it work?

Yes, Mastery is a gear stat. And how it works will depend on your primary talent tree (at least as of the info presented at Blizzcon).

Your way is not the only way. Its probably not even the best way.
This is a game we play for fun. Or at least thats why I play.
Drinking bourbon with Max Payne since 2010.

Keplar

< The Ur Quan Hierarch… >

Bloodhoof

13. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 01:36:00 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Comparing armor pen vs. say attack power is much mathier, because they really just both buff melee damage in pretty much the same way. The only time it matters is when you're near a cap or if you're a spec that does a lot of spell damage. But you learn pretty quickly for your spec whether armor pen is an awesome stat for you or just an okay stat.

If you know this, why, oh why did you put ArP on any of the daggers in ICC, especially the 1.8s?!?!

Strawberry

Scarlet Crusade

14. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 01:36:24 PM PST

Q u o t e:
I know I won't get an answer to this, but will mastery be appearing as a gear stat? If so how exactly will it work?

Also thank you for the post.

As I understand it from Blizzcon, yeah, it's a new stat. Basically as you put points into your trees, there's 3 bonuses that continually increase (more points invested in a a talent tree, the bigger the bonuses get). One of those is the "mastery" stat for your primary tree.

You add mastery to your gear, and it improves that "mastery" bonus - which is something specific to how your spec works that (to put ut simply) makes you better at that spec. May be something like Increased Poison Damage for assassin rogues, reducing your ability cooldowns for ret paladins, increasing critical strike damage bonus, increasing damage done by fire spells for fire mages/destro locks, etc.

Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted. ~Einstein

Charsi

< Critical Mass >

Stormrage

15. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 01:40:29 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Comparing armor pen vs. say attack power is much mathier, because they really just both buff melee damage in pretty much the same way.

Couldn't this thinking be applied to dodge and parry rating? They both do the same things (avoidance), nobody really cares about the tank parry hasting themselves, so as soon as you figure out wihch diminishes slower, you stack that - if you ever bother to stack it at all, which nobody does anyway.

Murphy's Law of WoW: Your class will be fixed shortly after you reroll to something else.

Mcvendor

Gorefiend

16. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 01:42:13 PM PST

Q u o t e:

Actually, we aren't trying to make gear choices easier. We like when it's a hard call on whether to upgrade vs. stick with what you have, etc. In designer parlance terms, that is an "interesting decision." Non-interesting decisions are typically no-brainers.

We want to remove some of the confusion over a complicated stat system, which we think we can do without reducing the system's depth. In fact, the other motivation for the stats overhaul was to solve some of the problems where a certain stat trumps all or a certain stat is always junk. If we nail that, then gear choices will actually be harder in Cataclysm, not easier.

As an example, when you aren't close to a crit cap and when buffs don't provide so much crit and talents don't provide so much crit, then haste vs. crit can be a pretty interesting choice. Haste lets you cast spells faster, but crit makes those spells you cast hit harder. At a very basic level you are choosing more spells vs. bigger spells, but because of a number of other factors, it's not that cut and dried. Haste may provide a dps increase for a caster according to a spreadsheet, but it depends and it might cause you to change your rotation. If you have spell A that hits so hard that you need to use it on cooldown, and spell B gets boosted by haste, then you can run into the situation where more haste on B isn't an improvement because you can't squeeze in another B before it's time to use A again. If you aren't able to capitalize on the extra haste, then more isn't always good for you. (That's in an ideal world. The way stats work in Icecrown, if you like haste, it's nearly always a no-brainer stat for you.)

Comparing armor pen vs. say attack power is much mathier, because they really just both buff melee damage in pretty much the same way. The only time it matters is when you're near a cap or if you're a spec that does a lot of spell damage. But you learn pretty quickly for your spec whether armor pen is an awesome stat for you or just an okay stat.

Many of your gear choices in Cataclysm should come down to haste vs. crit vs. mastery. You may still have one of those you like the most, but it shouldn't be double the value of the other stats, so you may have to look at the total package of stats on that item (Do I need more hit? If I take that hit, can I swap it out somewhere else?) Add in set bonuses and procs, and I'm not sure the gear choice will be all that easy, but it should be easier to understand.

While I do completely agree with changing how the stat based system interacts with character development as in my opinion it has become to convoluted for the "casual" player and especially that it has become hard for you guys (developers) to itemize gear for so many classes as well try to keep things balanced among them. Are you worried though that buy combining stats together (e.g., spell power is now int), that classes are going to lose their sort of "cool flair" stats wise?

For example, very few will argue (and not well) that since launch warlocks have mainly always had higher stamina than other casters. Is this going to be compensated in the talent re-work/design or is levels 80-85 natural stamina gains going to make the difference, or would itemization actually not affect this from the developers eyes? Only speaking from a warlock perspective but I am sure disparities of this kind between other similar classes do exist.

Do you think by putting in this new system your homogenizing the classes further? Because from posts of this entire expansion I can tell the devs don't want that.

Just curious.

[ Post edited by Mcvendor ]

Lightsend

Mannoroth

17. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 01:48:41 PM PST

Q u o t e:

As I understand it from Blizzcon, yeah, it's a new stat. Basically as you put points into your trees, there's 3 bonuses that continually increase (more points invested in a a talent tree, the bigger the bonuses get). One of those is the "mastery" stat for your primary tree.

You add mastery to your gear, and it improves that "mastery" bonus - which is something specific to how your spec works that (to put ut simply) makes you better at that spec. May be something like Increased Poison Damage for assassin rogues, reducing your ability cooldowns for ret paladins, increasing critical strike damage bonus, increasing damage done by fire spells for fire mages/destro locks, etc.

Ah ok, thank you for answering that. I hadn't heard it was going to be a gear stat and affect the mastery bonus's you get from putting a large amount of talent points in one talent tree (I did know about that part)

Mcvendor

Gorefiend

19. Re: Cata changes with itemization. 02/06/2010 01:55:59 PM PST

Q u o t e:
Does everyone responding to GC really need to quote the whole megapost each time?

Yes, because it's referencing his post and no one has to scroll up to read it, nor does GC have to scroll up either to read his post. Sorry to tell you but that's just considered forum etiquette. Haha.

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