World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Locks and what happened?

Spudacter

< Agents of the Kirin … >

Azjol-Nerub

40. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 09:31:56 AM PST

Q u o t e:

I would say that their actions show they don't currently feel that way. Specifically I mean:

1) Affliction DoTs got hugely buffed in damage. Improved Corruption changed for 10% more damage, Haunt added for 20% more DoT damage, Everlasting Affliction added for even more DoT damage, Critical strikes for DoTs. You can't claim that DoTs haven't been buffed in Wrath, especially for affliction warlocks. It's just not credible to say that.

2) DoTs being handed out more than ever as a solution to "burst" problems. Ret paladins are the most recent and obvious case, but in general they do seem to love changing things into DoTs in order to make them less problematic for burst. I think it's pretty obvious that the current crew understands well the trade offs of DoT damage vs direct damage. They understand that a DoT can deal a lot more damage than a Direct damage ability because it's a DoT.

I think Kalgan might be afraid of DoTs, and he might have been driving the horses when it came to that issue in the past, but Kalgan appears to be either working on the new secret MMO, or working in a higher level capacity. Either way his voice (assuming it was even his voice) doesn't seem to be as loud in the decision making.

lock scaling problems are certainly related in many cases to the way that DoTs work, but it's over simplification to say that's completely the case. Elemental Shamans aren't very DoT based, and they've had all kinds of scaling problems. There are other explanations for why a class or spec is good at one level of gear and bad at another than just "DoTs."

Personally, I would love to know if haste/crit scaling for pets is going to be in 3.3 or not. That's a pretty big "hole" in warlock scaling currently, and knowing that it's some where on the horizon but maybe still far away makes it impossible to have a truly informed opinion about the direction of the class.

Yes dots got buffed, but the game is still reliant on burst, thus dots are irrelevant. Dots being handed out to every class only shows how inept they are at scaling in the first place.

Caynne

Gul'dan

41. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 09:37:56 AM PST

Q u o t e:

scale with gear and we need to not have PVP influence our design

If you play a DPS spec and are not happy with your PvE performance, may I introduce to you Problem #1 and Problem #2.

#1 is fixible, given that appropriate care and thought is put forth by the Devs
#2 sadly is not, given Blizzards refusal to abandon the concept of a PvE and PvP world sharing the same mechanics / rules.

Zaritrai

Runetotem

42. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 09:58:03 AM PST

Q u o t e:

I think you're playing the sad sack a bit too zealously here. If you're not being taken for ToGC10 you either are bad or they just don't like you.

I'm talking about Tribute to Insanity runs here, you did not complete ToGC 10 let alone go for the achievement in which you get a lvl 258 cloak at the end, a mount, more trophies and a weapon I believe. It means no wipes at all for any boss. The reason they take the highest possible dpsers in my guild is to get to phase 3, at Anub'arak, with only one burrow and burn him down as fast as possible in phase 3 before people start dying. I do more dps than a shaman, but they can't sit a shaman for a warlock....

[ Post edited by Zaritrai ]

Mandorgan

Tortheldrin

43. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:13:34 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I'm talking about Tribute to Insanity runs here, you did not complete ToGC 10 let alone go for the achievement in which you get a lvl 258 cloak at the end, a mount, more trophies and a weapon I believe. It means no wipes at all for any boss. The reason they take the highest possible dpsers in my guild is to get to phase 3, at Anub'arak, with only one burrow and burn him down as fast as possible in phase 3 before people start dying. I do more dps than a shaman, but they can't sit a shaman for a warlock....

Check my armory page again. I have Tribute to Insanity (10-man).

Khyrra

< The Lightsworn >

Silver Hand

44. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:18:00 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I miss using searing pain for pvp. Dunno why they dont buff it to pvp-centric levels so they can do something about conflag and chaos bolt for pve.

Searing pain needs something. As-is, its worthless. Not even worth having hotkeyed for PVP or PVE. Blizzard should either buff its damage to the level where its worth casting, or they should simply remove it from the game.

Zaritrai

Runetotem

45. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:25:03 AM PST

Q u o t e:

Check my armory page again. I have Tribute to Insanity (10-man).

Well grats, you do. But what you said that I'm bad is not true, it's just in my guild they chose to go with the best dps classes atm and they are: hunters, mages, dks, rogues. They started this runs a few weeks ago and same people are in the same groups every week.

Trycky

< Havoc >

Khadgar

46. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:26:15 AM PST

I see locks do pretty well mages are good too. I never understood the my class top dps cries, I mean every class says what happened why is x class not in the top dps...silly how can there be all top dps in a raid.

What to look at are not the recount list numbers but the act dps/damage as compared to other classes. I can be 5th or 6th on some fights, but xxx class is doing 7500 and my 6th place is doing 7300. Now if locks were doing poorly as in say xxxclass is 7500 and locks are 5000 then yeah I can see it. But the numbers I see dont say that. Locks are on par with most other dps classes, of course its player ability and fight mechanics also. some classes do poorly on certain fights.

We all cant get the recount number 1 spot all the time, and I think thats the way it should be. It encourages variety in a raid setup.

Mandorgan

Tortheldrin

47. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:28:22 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Well grats, you do. But what you said that I'm bad is not true, it's just in my guild they chose to go with the best dps classes atm and they are: hunters, mages, dks, rogues. They started this runs a few weeks ago and same people are in the same groups every week.

So then it sounds like option B, they just don't like you.

The situation you're describing is akin to someone requiring a minimum of 6k DPS for everyone in their VoA10 raid.

Zaritrai

Runetotem

48. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:31:10 AM PST

Q u o t e:

So then it sounds like option B, they just don't like you.

The situation you're describing is akin to someone requiring a minimum of 6k DPS for everyone in their VoA10 raid.

Whatever, I have been in the same guild for the last 3 years...

Alkii

< Precision >

The Underbog

49. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:31:13 AM PST

When I can run off 5 crits in a row, all of which never go below 11k or over 18k, and I'm 3rd on the meters at the beginning of a fight (behind a cat druid and a DK) it does make one wonder.....when did melee get so damn explosive?

To then see that their top damage is "melee" and it's around 27-30% of their overall damage, i then think to myself "umm, white swings as top damage, huh?"

I think damage should be earned ... not "set it and forget it" like we see these days. How would people feel if casters could trigger wand casting while we casted our spells and have our wand be our TOP damage dealer?

meh ... I'm sure it'll get better. PTR is fun atm with being able to be affliction or destro. We're still behind in the damage department, but I'm sure they have something up their sleeves.

When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

Kuju

< Juggernaut >

Mal'Ganis

50. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:31:43 AM PST

Q u o t e:
well, the blues say they have the numbers that matter, and they must be able to see what the whole lock community is seeing, is that we are far below the other classes. In 3.3, they way things are shadow priest will out dps locks at this current rate. I don't think they have the answer and are putting us on the back burner till cata

Good thing locks really aren't that fair behind as the forums say.

Mandorgan

Tortheldrin

51. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:33:14 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Whatever, I have been in the same guild for the last 3 years...

Maybe it's time to find one that lets you raid with them.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

52. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:35:14 AM PST

Go look at the numbers for a fight like Northrend Beasts. Jaraxxus is off because of Spellsteal. Faction champs are faction champs. Twins has a lot of buffs. Anub'arak rewards characters who can AE well.

But if you look at Northrend Beasts, you'll typically see a lot of mages, rogues, locks and hunters all at the top of charts, with the occasional Feral druid or DK. Your mileage will almost certainly vary. Gear, raid synergy, latency and player skill play into those numbers a great deal. Unless you are one of those players routinely putting out 8000 dps on 25 heroic Northrend Beasts, you'll probably see a bigger increase just by improving your own performance than you would see if we just buffed you across the board.

Now make no mistake: the specifics of the encounter matter a lot. It's hard to look at almost any boss and call that a "normal fight" given the diversity and mechanics of the encounters. If you dismiss most of the bosses as I just did above, then you're culling through your data set quite a bit. The more you eliminate data points the more skewed your results could potentially become. I'm just trying to caveat anyone looking at a list of numbers and concluding based on that alone that your class is too high or too low. Doing dps is a lot more complicated then some players give it credit for. If it was not, you wouldn't see nearly the volume of theorycrafting debate that you do.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Deathvalli

Runetotem

53. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:36:21 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I see locks do pretty well mages are good too. I never understood the my class top dps cries, I mean every class says what happened why is x class not in the top dps...silly how can there be all top dps in a raid.

What to look at are not the recount list numbers but the act dps/damage as compared to other classes. I can be 5th or 6th on some fights, but xxx class is doing 7500 and my 6th place is doing 7300. Now if locks were doing poorly as in say xxxclass is 7500 and locks are 5000 then yeah I can see it. But the numbers I see dont say that. Locks are on par with most other dps classes, of course its player ability and fight mechanics also. some classes do poorly on certain fights.

We all cant get the recount number 1 spot all the time, and I think thats the way it should be. It encourages variety in a raid setup.

I remember when hunters cried in Naxxramas times that their dps was lower than other classes, they got fixed and been good ever since. No warlock wants to be top spot, they just don't want to be 10% behind a hunter for example.

Mohawkk

< Doesnt Like You >

Black Dragonflight

54. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:36:30 AM PST

Locks are fine, people just like to qq

Finteni

< Stonehenge >

Shadowmoon

55. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:38:46 AM PST

I believe alot has to do with the fight mechanics of ToC. I would rock hard core doing ulduar runs in some of the best gear for my guild (this was in some toc gear..we hit ulduar late). But come ToC fights, I would get whispers (man what happen to your dps). Then once gear got more normalized I started dropping out of the 1st place spot

Those fights really aren't warlock friendly. Now add some mediocre gear scaling (compared to other classes) and you have the state warlocks are currently in.

Maybe ICC will bring more fights that are warlock friendly. What is warlock friendly? Hell if I know, I just know ToC wasn't it. In addition, blizzards seems to be more focused on our pet synergy...all specs (not just demo) to help seperate us from mages. I believe when true pet scaling hits (talks were in 3.3...whether its the intial 3.3 push or 3.3.1, 3.3.2, etc.) our damage will be unmatched. Maybe thats the hold off, because these changes are "soon" (who knows really) and to buff us now, only to nerf us badly would probably get more complaints (no one likes a nerf, even if its deserved).

I play what I love and force myself into raids if need be. There is value in every class, raid leaders just need to see it. Unfortunately, we are at an uphill battle to justify our spot instead of being taken instantly.

Mandorgan

Tortheldrin

56. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:39:55 AM PST

Q u o t e:
I remember when hunters cried in Naxxramas times that their dps was lower than other classes, they got fixed and been good ever since. No warlock wants to be top spot, they just don't want to be 10% behind a hunter for example.

Everyone wants to be top spot. ;)

I guess we can infer by GC's post that he does not think there is an issue with Warlock DPS, or at least that there won't be in ICC.

Q u o t e:
What is warlock friendly?

Adds aren't, unless they have a ton of HP, in which case they're only Aff Lock friendly. Unfortunately I'm seeing lots of adds in these new fights, heh.

[ Post edited by Mandorgan ]

Deathvalli

Runetotem

57. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:40:43 AM PST

So, warlocks don't have any scaling issues? Is it just fight mechanics?

Planckscale

< void >

Spirestone

58. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:41:09 AM PST

Q u o t e:
Go look at the numbers for a fight like Northrend Beasts. Jaraxxus is off because of Spellsteal. Faction champs are faction champs. Twins has a lot of buffs. Anub'arak rewards characters who can AE well.

But if you look at Northrend Beasts, you'll typically see a lot of mages, rogues, locks and hunters all at the top of charts, with the occasional Feral druid or DK. Your mileage will almost certainly vary. Gear, raid synergy, latency and player skill play into those numbers a great deal. Unless you are one of those players routinely putting out 8000 dps on 25 heroic Northrend Beasts, you'll probably see a bigger increase just by improving your own performance than you would see if we just buffed you across the board.

Now make no mistake: the specifics of the encounter matter a lot. It's hard to look at almost any boss and call that a "normal fight" given the diversity and mechanics of the encounters. If you dismiss most of the bosses as I just did above, then you're culling through your data set quite a bit. The more you eliminate data points the more skewed your results could potentially become. I'm just trying to caveat anyone looking at a list of numbers and concluding based on that alone that your class is too high or too low. Doing dps is a lot more complicated then some players give it credit for. If it was not, you wouldn't see nearly the volume of theorycrafting debate that you do.

Does it not then, become a legitimate concern that warlocks aren't up to the task of handling current encounter design? Or are we going to continue to pass off lackluster DPS of a pure class as "disadvantaged by encounter mechanics". There are a number of threads that are addressing these questions for warlocks. Specifically, I've seen the question of target switching/dps ramping, incidental AoE, and mobility. Those kinds of questions aren't necessarily going to be answered by straight percentage buffs -- they're more fundamental to the class design and playstyle itself.

Please don't make the mistaken assumption that all players just want more +% dmg. There are legitimate concerns that certain warlock specs (namely affliction) just aren't up to task with these new types of encounters.

Phalloides

Mal'Ganis

59. Re: Locks and what happened? 11/20/2009 10:43:22 AM PST

Q u o t e:
So, warlocks don't have any scaling issues? Is it just fight mechanics?

No, Locks only have issues when bad players are playing them.

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