---

Q u o t e:
Instead of blindly asking about it, do some research. See how much it impacts our dps. Single target, multi-target, target-switching. Make an argument that it's too much of a contributor to our dps for it to go live without haste scaling and that our rotation is so cluttered that we need a dps increase to our passive dps to mitigate the impact on our dps that rotational difficulties have. Do some mathematical extrapolation to show that it's a unacceptable nerf to scaling as we'll be 1000 dps lower relatively in t10 as we stand in t9. Argue that we need it hasted to perform well in high-level PvP. But don't just hope and ask, because that'll never convince Blizzard that it's really that big an issue.

---

Well I think at this point it's fully understood by all interested (Spriests and Devs) what impact on DPS the change has.

Could I point to the Simcraft 3.3 PTR DPS rankings pre and post SW:P change? I'm fairly certain we've all seen them. Going from #2 to middle of the pack sucks, but that's more than likely what the Devs wanted (to some degree at least).

Basically I'd like the Haste scaling to go back to what it was or be implemented in a refresh mechanic as has been suggested. I go about that by asking. Nothing wrong with that.

P.S. These brownies I made are Delicious.

^ lol, wrong toon.

---

Q u o t e:
Part of that is that because you actually have haste gems in your gear, it diminishes haste's relative value, which is the idea that stacking too much of one stat never works as well as some manner of balance. Imagine that I do 1000 dps. Now if I add 100% haste, I'll do 2000 dps. If I add 50% more haste, I'll do 2500 dps, but if I add 50% crit instead, I'll do 3000 dps. It's a similar concept of comparable diminishing returns.

Orange is still going to be relatively good for hitting more socket bonuses now. Yellow not so much, but you can sell em at least, right?

---

yeah i can sell em... true enough.

well as much as I have enjoyed being the butt of your jokes....my daughter just woke up. Hopefully tomorrow will bring news of a positive change to shadow Priests.

The way I see it in Icecrown (from fights we've seen so far) there are fewer burst phases, so it looks like it will be generally okay for us to be middle of the pack (once we get our 4pc obviously). Our lack of usefulness in burst phases will be mitigated by some insane multi-dotting--and honestly, I could see that being a reason why haste scaling was removed from SW:P (and I'm sure they're looking at aff)--if we want to keep up our powerful multi-dotting, it's fair enough that we sacrifice dps time reapplying VT, but when we just keep SWP rolling on 3 targets at +20% or more it could get a little ridiculous. Let's give the devs some time, IMO.

---

Q u o t e:


i wish i could sim ICC gear and see if haste actually overtakes spellpower

---

It's easy enough to override a slot with a new item.

For example let's start with a base line of my gear which we'll save away to a .simc file:
(using the command line version of SimulationCraft)

simc armory=us,Jubei'Thos,Delmortis save=delmortis.simc

This will download my current gear and talents etc and save the results to delmortis.simc.

Now let's play around with that profile a bit.

Let's say we wanted to change the back piece to the new ICC one: http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50668/greatcloak-of-the-turned-champion/

I can make a new profile (Delmortis2) with this new ICC cloak by doing:

simc input=delmortis.simc name=Delmortis2 save=delmortis2.simc back=greatcloak_of_the_turned_champion,id=50668,gems=23sp,enchant=lightweave_embroidery

If I run that it will create a new profile based upon my armory but with that new ICC loot (it will first check db.mmo-champion.com, then ptr.wowhead.com, then www.wowhead.com and finally the armory to find out the stats for the item).

I can then easily compare the two sets:

simc input=delmortis.simc input=delmortis2.simc

That will run a sim showing the results for both profiles.

(overriding items like this is required at present because the wowhead profiler only supports live info and so does the wowarmory).

You can make other changes of course as new pieces of loot are discovered and put up on mmo-c.

---

Q u o t e:
Speaking of bugs, there was apparently a nasty bug in our handling of Deadly Poison which has since been fixed but the SampleOutput pages haven't yet been updated with the change. The fix moves Rogues up around 500 or 600 DPS which puts them pretty much 2nd behind the Survival Hunter.

---

The DP bug that was introduced a couple weeks ago has been fixed. This fix is in the 322-5 release currently available for download and is also reflected in the most recent SampleOutput.

Please remember that the name of that report is "Sample Output" and not "The Gospel According to Nate".

---

Q u o t e:
Basically I'd like the Haste scaling to go back to what it was or be implemented in a refresh mechanic as has been suggested..

---

that pretty much sums it up, id say those are fairly reasonable requests and i hope we see some confirmation in the next few days

---

Q u o t e:


that pretty much sums it up, id say those are fairly reasonable requests and i hope we see some confirmation in the next few days

---

Most likely technically impossible (given the scope of 3.3) or you'd think they would've changed it already, huh?

---

Q u o t e:
Most likely technically impossible (given the scope of 3.3) or you'd think they would've changed it already, huh?

---

Technically impossible? i dont think so, these effects re-calculate spell power and crit damage, so i don't think it's impossible at all

Thank you for the reply, that clarifies a lot, and i hope this ends the other SW:P and haste threads that have been coming up.

---

Q u o t e:
There is a bug where you can get big SW:P dots and then keep them rolling at that magnitude forever since the spell gets constantly refreshed. It's a nasty bug to fix.

---

What are you going to do when affliction warlocks start taking advantage of permanent super hasted rolling corruption in icecrown?

Fix the bug?
Remove haste from corruption?

Any chance that the SW:P glyph will be updated now that the synergy with haste is gone?

Thank you for the response, and the clarification. I am curious about the future of the SW:P glyph as well.

---

Q u o t e:
We removed Shadow Word: Pain from scaling with haste because we thought Shadow dps was too high with all 3 dots hasted.

---

Aside from one simulationcraft, I haven't seen anything from my personal dps, from parses, or any other 'real world' application where shadow damage is out of hand. Now, if the bug doesn't get fixed, spriest dps will be too high because we all would roll trolls and engineering and abuse the heck out of it (who wouldn't :D ), but this just seems wrong.

---

Q u o t e:


What are you going to do when affliction warlocks start taking advantage of permanent super hasted rolling corruption in icecrown?

Fix the bug?
Remove haste from corruption?

---

---

Q u o t e:
However, that isn't why we removed SW:P from Shadowform.

---

GC, a few interesting points have been brought up in this thread, namely that shadow dps is now on parity in 3.3 for single target mobs, but we're affected disproportionately by latency (due to the mechanics behind channeled spells, and we happen to be the only dps class with a channeled spell as the meat of our rotation) and do exceedingly poorly in burst phases and target switching, while we do exceedingly well in fights that have multiple targets we can maintain multi-dot rotations against or even better, dot up and forget (a la yogg tentacles).

Personally, I think it's wonderful that there's variance in how certain classes perform in certain areas of the game, but it seems excessive to me the differences in these certain areas are. Some suggestions I've heard and liked have been to frontload VT and SWP the way you do with DP to make target switching with dots more viable (as it's a DPS loss to switch DP off of your main target) or to give some ability on a cooldown the ability to reflect damage we deal to one target onto another--this wouldn't affect our sustained dps at all, and would help our ramp-up for burst phases. Maybe make VT or SWP diminish in power based on how many targets it's active on.

Just some thoughts. I like where Shadow is going, but being too good in some areas and too bad in others leads to frustrating moments both for the players and their raids.

---

Q u o t e:

Aside from one simulationcraft, I haven't seen anything from my personal dps, from parses, or any other 'real world' application where shadow damage is out of hand. Now, if the bug doesn't get fixed, spriest dps will be too high because we all would roll trolls and engineering and abuse the heck out of it (who wouldn't :D ), but this just seems wrong.

---

"too high" doesn't mean "out of hand". Shadow was performing a few % higher in ICC than the devs were comfortable with it doing. That's all.

@Tokiha, just because it wasn't the reason haste was removed doesn't mean it wasn't still a gamebreaking bug that will just give everyone a headache when it doesn't get fixed for aff.

Greg,

It sounds like a lackadaisical effort on the part of your programming team.

Thanks,

Me

---

Q u o t e:
Greg,

It sounds like a lackadaisical effort on the part of your programming team.

Thanks,

Me

---

What is lackadaisical about it? They did it because they believe your DPS was too high not because of haste stacking.

---

Q u o t e:


@Tokiha, just because it wasn't the reason haste was removed doesn't mean it wasn't still a gamebreaking bug that will just give everyone a headache when it doesn't get fixed for aff.

---

It makes me giggle that this bug was such a hot button for us, it has even dragged me to these boards which is a rarity for me. imo we are the hardest working class to get our dps up to par. we will seek out any way to up our dps just be that little bit more competitive.

truth be told if there were crit trink/procs/other temp buffs that we could stack for SW:P we would be doing the same thing on live atm to eek out that 100 dps that still wouldnt change much for our overall dps currently.

i do wonder if there is going to be an exodus of locks switching to engineering, if they will make any changes to it at a later date.

Oh, and thank you GC for shedding a much needed light on what was happening.