Oh cool, my thread was deleted while I was gone despite the fact that it didn't break any rules. Are we not allowed to discuss tanking imbalances anymore?

I really can't understand how paladins can one-up another tanking class completely in every respect and not get, well... balanced.

Everyone likes list, so I made one illustrating my point.

*Cooldowns*
- Shield Wall (40%/2min for major glyph + 2 TP) vs. Divine Protection (50%/2min for 2 TP)

- Last Stand (+30% HP for 20 seconds, HP lost after/2min w/ major glyph) vs. AD(Passive 20% DR below 35% PLUS passive LS upon death)

- (Enraged Regen?) vs. LoH (pending fix)

- Pally only - Divine Sac - Flavor?

*Abilities*
- Heroic Throw (Hits one target/1min CD) vs. Avenger's Shield (Hits THREE targets/30s CD)
- Taunt (Taunts target/8s CD) vs. RD (Taunts 3 targets/15sec CD)
- Thunderclap (Damage/6sec CD) vs. Consecrate (DOT (does more sustained TPS/DPS)/8sec CD)
- Shield Block (100% BR/BV for 10sec/40sec CD) vs. HS (Constant 30% BR +/- 10% from Redoubt/10sec CD)
- Def Stance (10% DR + -5% DMG) vs. Righteous Fury + Shield of the Templar (9% DR + no DMG handicap)
- Imp Def Stance (Additional 6% SP DR) vs. Guarded by the Light (Additional 6% SP DR) - WHERE'S THE FLAVOR, BLIZZ?
- Warrior 1-H Wep Spec (10% for 5 TP) vs. Paladin 1-H Wep Spec (10% for 3 TP)
- Conc Blow (Stuns for 4sec/45sec CD) vs. HoJ (Stunfs for 6sec/50sec CD)

*Debuffs*
- Demo Shout (Reduces AP/30sec dur/Uses a GCD) vs. Vindication (Reduces AP/Passive)
- Thunderclap (Reduces spd 10%/Uses GCD/30sec dur) vs. JotJ (Reduces spd 10%/Passive)


*Stats*
+6% Stam vs. +14% Stam



And, last but not least.... *DRUM ROLL*



*FLAVOR*
(Paladin Only)
- SA - Guarantees 100% mana vs. Fluctuating rage
- Divinity - All healing done to player increased by 5%
- Blessings + BoS (+3% DR for raid + 10% stam for raid + mana regen for raid)
- Divine Intervention - Free repair bills
- Hand of Freedom
- 30/50sec interrupt
- Resist Auras
- Bubble Hearth (30min CD)

(Warrior Only)
- Charge/Intercept/Intervene
- Sunders
- Shield Bash
- Challenging Shout - AoE Taunt/3min CD
- Comm Shout
- BS (overwritten by BoM)
- Spell Reflect
- Berserker Rage
- Intimidating Shout - AOE fear/3min CD
- Disarm (LOL IMMUNE)
- Vigilance - 10% TPS directed from 1 target to tank + 3% DR on target
- Shockwave - Can both help and hurt on rage.
- Random animals on your armor



*Commentary*

*Cooldowns*
- SW vs DP - DP gains an additional 10% DR on the same CD. Why?

- AD vs. LS - This is where things go haywire. First of all CDs shouldn't be passive. Nobody likes it, not even pallies. It turns everything into EZ mode and plays the game for the player. Second, for the sake of balance, either the proc effect or the DR effect needs to go. This just @##@s all over LS otherwise because it's essentially two LS's for one. In fact, the 20% DR is infinitely more useful than LS since it's always up and guaranteed EH. How did this even get past the development stage?

Essentially, Paladins get 3 CDs (4 if LoH is counted) while warriors only get 2 CDs, which are both inferior to the paladin CDs. That's not flavor, that's just imbalanced.

*Abilities*
- Avenger's Shield is Heroic Throw on half the CD and hits three times as many targets. IMBALANCED
- Taunts - Paladin taunt does dmg, warrior's does not.
- Consecrate @##@s all over TC unless you're tanking the adds on Sarth. TC needs it DPS/TPS upped and the cd reduced. IMBALANCED
- From an EH POV, Holy Shield is better. The difference between HS and SB is why warriors tanks are generally regarded as spikier and why healers prefer a paladin. SB acts as a mini-CD, but most sensible warriors would prefer EH instead.
- Warriors have a 1% DR advantage at the cost of 5% DPS/TPS. I would say pallies win here.
- Imp Def Stance vs GbtL is actually... balanced. There's a surprise.
- 1-H Spec - 10% vs. 10%. TP difference is negligible.

*Stats*
6% vs. 14%. Paladins have a clear stam advantage over warriors after T8. Definitely imbalanced, and needs a buff on the warrior side.


*Flavor*
- Mana is EZ mode compared to constantly monitoring rage. I would die to have 100% rage when I ran into a boss, and not have to worry about getting rage starved randomly during fights.
- Blessings are a blessing in disguise for pallies. Infinitely superior to shouts. They don't even need to be reapplied during combat.
- Sunders. I would chalk it up to a quality of life thing for the DPS warriors and/or rogues.
- Challenging Shout - Nice for trash/Freya/a chain of missed taunts.
- Vigilance - Hate it with a passion. WTB new talent ASAP.
- Bubble Hearth. Touchy subject. I think we all know this is the biggest imbalance, but I'll let it slide because I'm running out of space.


Of course, if I made any mistakes feel free to post them.

didn't you already make a thread about this earlier?

nvm read the start of the new thread

Said it in the other thread too - for me, at least, the responding to procs (sword and board, parries and dodges for revenge) is a lot more fun than the 9696969 "rotation." Also, intercept and intervene are really fun abilities.

In a perfect world, I'd have someone else in my guild be a pally tank and I'd tank part time on my warrior and DPS part time as arms or fury (if they'd let arms scale!).

Anyway, the fact that you put stuff like intervene, sunder, commanding shout, etc under "flavor" is extremely disingenuous in your argument. They have uses , some of them are extremely important (sunder). Perhaps that's why your thread got deleted at first?

Your point/post losses all merit when you start dismissing things. For one, you don't even mention the stat boosts from the ranged weapon slot that a warriors get over the Paladin. Furthermore, you seem to believe disarm is worthless, and while it may not be useful on most bosses, it is useful in some boss fights. For example, Onyxia and the Guardians. Disarming the Guardians reduces a huge chunk of their potential damage.

Edit:
And as Frando said, it comes down to the fun value sometimes. Its impossible to totally balance two distinct classes, all we can hope for is to get as close as possible.

Also, you're comparing two classes with regards to their tanking ability. Your just being a hypocrite by ignoring Death Knights and Druids. You can't balance only two of the four classes/specs designed for tanking against each other. They ALL have to be balanced against each other.

Because your list appears to deliberately underestimate the warrior abilites and overrate or lie about the paladin equivalent?

Yes, warriors need a bump/tweak upwards, your post is just another obscure and obfuscate fest that wants paladins nerfed.



Perhaps you should ask for Blizzard to put the warrior class out of its misery and delete it since it is so obviously broken? They could let you reroll as a Paladin or Druid.

Valid option? Discuss.

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Q u o t e:
Because your list appears to deliberately underestimate the warrior abilites and overrate or lie about the paladin equivalent?

Yes, warriors need a bump/tweak upwards, your post is just another obscure and obfuscate fest that wants paladins nerfed.

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Hey I was about to post this very thing.

By intentionally downplaying Warrior abilities and throwing a fit over every little Paladin detail you can possibly play up, you manage to look like a stammering child to both the rational people who understand Warriors are definitely behind Paladins and the crybaby Paladins who will wail at the drop of the hat.

It's pretty perfect, actually.

Mana is larger in pool size, Rage and Runic Power are easier to generate but kinda iffy on always being

there. If Mana runs out, you're pretty much %!&*'ed. Pots are usable about once every 2 min's, not very

reliable there. I suppose it's a balance, but it could be looked into, if Blizzard feels it's an issue.

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Q u o t e:


Flavor is simply things that one class has that the other doesn't. Sunder can be provided by other classes/specs, just as blessings can. The same for commanding shout. Intervene is rarely used on a boss fight.

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So why not list everything under "flavor"?

Because he's trying to downplay warrior "flavor" while make paladin "flavor" look OP.

And somehow...

This equates to the first kills of Anub (heroic mode) being done with a Druid and Warrior off tank.

Am I right?

Obviously warriors need nerfed, since they were tanking end game content first. I'll admit druids need one too...buff DK's and paladins.

I'm sick of the cries over paladins, when they neglect the bigger picture.



Next I'm going to hear, the Paladin has pretty wings, he should slap like a girl, do less damage, and thus produce less threat.

When this happens I hope blizzards response is, all bosses are now metro-phobic and protection paladins have learned how to use this to there advantage. Now Protection paladins will automatically have a threat lead unless taunted from another protection specced class, in which the paladin only needs to slap the boss to regain it's consistent threat lead,

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Q u o t e:
Point to me where I lied or overrated a paladin ability. The descriptions are straight from the tooltips.

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Okay.

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Q u o t e:
- Mana is EZ mode compared to constantly monitoring rage. I would die to have 100% rage when I ran into a boss, and not have to worry about getting rage starved randomly during fights.
- Blessings are a blessing in disguise for pallies. Infinitely superior to shouts. They don't even need to be reapplied during combat.
- Sunders. I would chalk it up to a quality of life thing for the DPS warriors and/or rogues.

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Q u o t e:
We don't delete threads in which players disagree or want to point out problems with the design. If we did, the forums would have about three threads in them.

We sometimes lock threads that are generally not contributing, but we leave them there so players can see that they were locked. We generally only delete a thread if it is overly offensive, an advertisement or similar spam.

If other players disagree with the point or the logic used in a thread they will either let it die the death of neglect or they'll argue things out, generally depending on the quality of the thread. We don't police bad information, though on occasion we'll drop in and let you know if we agree or disagree that something is a problem.

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Right, so...the OP's first post was deleted on what grounds? As I recall there were some fair responses and rebuttals in that thread.

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Q u o t e:


I think you're bluffing.

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Stop spamming and re-posting topics.