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Q u o t e:


I <3 you GC. This made my day.

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Yeah, that post totally added to the thread. I mean the post he's referring to was mostly ignored by everyone else until he decided to highlight it.

Oh noes, last post in the thread:*(

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Q u o t e:


Your last sentence isn't bad. That's what I would call the current paladin vision. I agree that the old "defensive support" description really isn't valid any longer. Surely there aren't a lot of paladins posting on this thread confused because they are no longer defensive support. I assumed a lot of it was "Well, you nerfed abilities I liked so clearly I must be playing the class wrong." I don't really think that's the core issue though. Abilities can be overpowered without a class's identity being in jeopardy.

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I dunno, man.
As much as I hate rets, they do have a point about the whole identity thing.

They're a defensive hybrid playing an offensive spec with many, many defensive abilities. How do you balance that?

e: doh I need to l2read

edited for e

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Q u o t e:


Your last sentence isn't bad. That's what I would call the current paladin vision. I agree that the old "defensive support" description really isn't valid any longer. Surely there aren't a lot of paladins posting on this thread confused because they are no longer defensive support. I assumed a lot of it was "Well, you nerfed abilities I liked so clearly I must be playing the class wrong." I don't really think that's the core issue though. Abilities can be overpowered without a class's identity being in jeopardy.

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So this means we will continue to see the "PLATE, BUBBLE AND HEALS?!" posts every time paladins are sad about not having other utility in PvP, or different heals except Flash of Light, Holy Light, and what some of the paladins ive seen like to say, the useless holy shock?

I guess I'll have to live with Divine Shield... /sigh

It isn't about identity, it's about what we bring to the table. We no longer bring scary burst to the table. We never brought any serious offensive utility to the table. We will soon not bring much in the way of survivability or defensive utility to the table. What, exactly, will we then bring to the table?

Is any other spec forced to endure nerf after nerf because they allegedly overpoerform against mediocre and bad players? Is any other spec forced to endure nerf after nerf based on battleground experiences? Want to see a defensive hybrid in a battleground? Take on a Resto Druid.

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Q u o t e:

Abilities can be overpowered without a class's identity being in jeopardy.

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Abilities can also be overpowered in duels, yet nerfing them will put the class's arena representation in jeopardy. GC, I know you said, or implied, that this wasn't about duels. But I think you're lying to us. I think you're changing the class because the scrub perception is that ret paladins are overpowered because, in duels, we certainly are.

But you're removing our viability in arenas, and I am pretty much as unhappy about this as I can possibly be about a change to a videogame.

Oh now that someone mentioned Sacred Shield, I'd like to make a question:

If you want Sacred Shield to be Holy only (let's not start discussing again that is shouldn't or it should), would it be too much to ask for it to get more utility based on the Heal you cast while Sacred Shield is up?

What I mean is, right now when the Absorb shield is up, it grants a +50% crit rate on Flash of Light and the HoT from Flash of Light (this one occurs even if the absorb shield hasn't procced), could there be a different effect when you cast, say Holy Shock, like maybe after you Holy Shock someone, the Sacred Shield automatically procs? Or Holy Light, when you cast it, it grants you Illumination mana as if it had crit (and if it crits it grants you that amount twice)? Would make healing more dinamic (and maybe open more options to Holy PvE and PvP healing)

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Q u o t e:
You see people describing fighting a Retribution paladin as a three phase boss fight. You might get them down, but then they can reset the fight with Lay on Hands. You get them down again and they bubble and heal.

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What are you describing/trying to balance Retribution around? Random fights around Stables? What about ARENAS? Are we back to leveling spec mentality?

Since you started, lets trade anecdotes:

Have you ever fought ANY healer as Retribution? You line up all your abilities perfectly, all CD are up and ready to go... you give them all you have ...Kazzak died to less damage... and they are back to 100% through all your damage, wings and all, in 1 GCD... while they just sit there and tank you, not even trying to get away. Do you know how it feels beating on a wall? Well if you are curious to find out - do some Retribution vs Healer fights. Bring a book...


Lets talk frost mages. They can wand you to death while you go OOM trying to cleanse yourself. Blink out of stuns, nova-galore, snare-galore, spell steal... and all you have is Repentance every 60 seconds to TRY to get close on them, like they don't have a trinket. You can go entire duel without ever landing a hit. I understand frost mages designed to fight warriors with multiple gap close abilities.. but you forgot to count for classes like Retribution that have NONE. So you sit in the nova and YOU LIKE IT, because you are not going anywhere (well maybe very very slowly and only while you have mana to spam cleanse).


Wait, here is my favorite story.... You get on 3v3 arena team, it has promise. Your rogue knows how to sap, you priest burns like a pro. You feel LUCKY, you managed to get on one of the VERY FEW teams that work for Retribution. You work hard, you practice your strats and you start getting somewhere. Life looks good. One day you log in and notice team rating jumped 100+ points... there is new player on your team, undergeared and underskilled mage, but he knows his sheep macro and can be told to counter-spell. You don't get to Arena anymore... they went RMP.

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Q u o t e:


Your last sentence isn't bad. That's what I would call the current paladin vision. I agree that the old "defensive support" description really isn't valid any longer. Surely there aren't a lot of paladins posting on this thread confused because they are no longer defensive support. I assumed a lot of it was "Well, you nerfed abilities I liked so clearly I must be playing the class wrong." I don't really think that's the core issue though. Abilities can be overpowered without a class's identity being in jeopardy.

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Does that mean there will be no form of offensive utility added to Ret's repertoire in 3.3?

Please answer that question, you have an entire community holding our breath for the answer.

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Q u o t e:


There is very little evidence we have over-nerfed paladins at any time in the past couple of years.

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TBC comes to mind...like, the entire expansion comes to mind...in pve and pvp.

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Q u o t e:


What are you describing/trying to balance Retribution around? Random fights around Stables?

Since you started, lets trade anecdotes:

Have you ever fought ANY healer as Retribution? You line up all your abilities perfectly... and they back to 100% through all your damage, wings and all, and they barely dip past 50%.... and they just sit there, not even trying to CC/kite you. Do you know how it feels beating on a wall? Well if you curious to find out - do some Retribution vs Healer fights.


Lets talk frost mages. They can wand you to death while you go OOM trying to cleanse yourself. Blink, nova-galore, snare-galore, spell steal... and all you have is Repentance every 60 seconds to TRY to get close on them. You can go entire duel without ever landing a hit. I understand frost mages designed to fight warriors with multiple gap close abilities.. but you forgot to count for classes like Retribution that have NONE. So you sit in the nova and YOU LIKE IT, because you are not going anywhere (well maybe very very slowly and only while you have mana to spam cleanse).

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this, absolutely this.

Try to take on a disc priest or resto druid as a Ret paladin. You think LoH is an unfair reset? Try facing these classes that seem to have a rapid-fire setting for their reset buttons. Absorb Absorb Heal Absorb heal or Hot Hot Hot Hot run and shift heal to full HoT HoT HoT Cyclone Hot Stealth.

I am absolutely stunned that GC is arguing that our two "reset buttons" (one of which can be removed by two different classes, the other that is on a 20 min cooldown) is somehow unfair and un fun to face compared to the power of a Disc priest or Resto Druid (or hell, a resto shaman for that matter).

Seriously.

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Q u o t e:


Your last sentence isn't bad. That's what I would call the current paladin vision. I agree that the old "defensive support" description really isn't valid any longer. Surely there aren't a lot of paladins posting on this thread confused because they are no longer defensive support. I assumed a lot of it was "Well, you nerfed abilities I liked so clearly I must be playing the class wrong." I don't really think that's the core issue though. Abilities can be overpowered without a class's identity being in jeopardy.

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I don't suppose you feel like answering any valid questions? Just here to placate trolls and lay down the mod hammer tonight?

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Q u o t e:



this, absolutely this.

Try to take on a disc priest or resto druid as a Ret paladin. You think LoH is an unfair reset? Try facing these classes that seem to have a rapid-fire setting for their reset buttons. Absorb Absorb Heal Absorb heal or Hot Hot Hot Hot run and shift heal to full HoT HoT HoT Cyclone Hot Stealth.

I am absolutely stunned that GC is arguing that our two "reset buttons" (one of which can be removed by two different classes, the other that is on a 20 min cooldown) is somehow unfair and un fun to face compared to the power of a Disc priest or Resto Druid (or hell, a resto shaman for that matter).

Seriously.

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Heck, fighting against another Paladin could end up with him laughing at you while he heals up...... =_=

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Q u o t e:


I don't suppose you feel like answering any valid questions? Just here to placate trolls and lay down the mod hammer tonight?

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I feel that too, in fact I feel like everyone all of the sudden put me on their ignore list...../qq

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I don't suppose you feel like answering any valid questions? Just here to placate trolls and lay down the mod hammer tonight?

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Why should he? Your just edging him to make the paladin in your eyes and the way you want it devoloped. If the man gave into all this QQ about paladins the class would have a Wrath of God spell were it eleminates all enemy targets from the field AND it still wouldnt be anough. They got their ideas , They run the game they develop the game in their eyes.

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Q u o t e:


Why should he? Your just edging him to make the paladin in your eyes and the way you want it devoloped. If the man gave into all this QQ about paladins the class would have a Wrath of God spell were it eleminates all enemy targets from the field AND it still wouldnt be anough. They got their ideas , They run the game they develop the game in their eyes.

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You mean to tell me we don't have Holy Eye Lasers, Paladin Rocket Flying Boots, and Paladin Only + Win Gems?

NO WAY

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Q u o t e:



Asking what they have in store for our class is different from telling him what we want it to be. We're not saying "We need X" we're saying "What do you have planned for us?"

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And when he gives the slightest hint its not good anough. Massive QQ posts follow , telling him he's not doing his job correctly. TBH im not sure why devolopers pop in these forums. Its massive spam of inaccurate claims and wants .