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Tanky because when peope fight a ret (dps spec), we have to consider thier strong defensive abilities to the extent that it is always a 2 phase and occasionally 3 phase fight depending on Lay on hands. Fighting a ret means get him down once, bubble heal get him down twice, and if lay on hands is availible get him down a 3rd time.

This is quite tanky for a spec which is supposed to place its strength in offensive play.

for comparisons sake imagine a resto shaman ( Defensive spec) having a really strong offensive tool that has the ability to take away 75 percent of an opponents life instantly but is on a 20 min cd. Most would call it OP.

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To compare, lets take an elemental shaman having a really strong heal after just two shotting the Paladin and forcing them to bubble, so they do not die instantly.

It's arguments like yours which has even made this come into play. I have a hunch that these changes are coming out for when rated Battleground come. However, it doesn't change the fact that if these abilties were to be changed that the class would become so weak, that all other classes would suffer and become nerfed.

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Ok, I was wrong, but 89% are arms. Which means if I actually want to do well, I pretty much have to go arms. I could go fury and do ok, just like ret could, but why go fury when I can go a wayyyyyyy more superior spec, kinda like what's happening to ret. And arms gear isn't the same as fury gear. You need more hit as fury, which sacrifices other stats. You need a little more expertise because you can't use op, as well. You also need a weapon change because 10 seconds of white hitting as fury is terrible, unlike arms which only has 5. So since It's in my best interest to go a better spec to do better in arena, why do pallys keep whining about it when warriors aren't? Clearly you guys need to just chill out.

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this thread is not about arms warriors nor arms vrs fury in pvp, but even if it were let me make one thing clear

Look I'll even stop @!%#-posting and use punctuation so you know I'm serious. The Warrior class has two DPS talent trees, fury and arms. If you want to DPS in arena and arms is better than the fury tree, you can respec to arms. The gear differences don't matter. It's somewhat akin to the "hybrid tax" that Ghostcrawler posted and stickied in this very forum. If the Paladin class has one DPS talent tree and it underperforms (doesn't exist in high level arena, according to the latest post) in high level arena, they cannot respec to DPS. Period. It's the exact same as rogues coming on here and demanding 1500 more DPS than other classes because they cannot respec to tank or heal if a raid is full of DPS.

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And Warlocks and Rogues. The fact that Lay on Hands was even targeted for a nerf feels like such a kneejerk reaction to a bad night (lol, did you play a WSG against 10 Paladins?) I don't even know why it was included -- this is literally something that comes up once, at most, in a battleground situation, and very few Paladins even utilize the ability in a way that affects the outcome of the game. At best, most Paladins I've seen use this in a Battleground will use it to pursue and attempt to kill someone that pissed them off somewhere in the match.

Hell, I've used it during a fight against a Destro Lock and still died. I guess Lay on Hands is just an easy ability to pick out to prevent "guaranteed" one on one victories (even though such a description is far from the truth) against certain classes.

It really does seems backwards, though, for a game where we're constantly reminded that PvP isn't balanced around fights of that size. If this is a sign of things to come, then I'd be all for seeing how the class designers are going to try to balance things further and let classes fight other ones that used to be hard counters. But I can't say that I'm getting my hopes up that high.

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Ranked bgs are on the horizon. My guess is at least some of these things are being considered to balance that. If LoH could be used in arenas, it would be a massive advantage. The only reason people don't complain too much about it is because it's really only OP in battlegrounds, world pvp, and duels (although you could argue, situationally, it's an amazing tanking cd as well).

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Q u o t e:


Ok, I was wrong, but 89% are arms. Which means if I actually want to do well, I pretty much have to go arms. I could go fury and do ok, just like ret could, but why go fury when I can go a wayyyyyyy more superior spec, kinda like what's happening to ret. And arms gear isn't the same as fury gear. You need more hit as fury, which sacrifices other stats. You need a little more expertise because you can't use op, as well. You also need a weapon change because 10 seconds of white hitting as fury is terrible, unlike arms which only has 5. So since It's in my best interest to go a better spec to do better in arena, why do pallys keep whining about it when warriors aren't? Clearly you guys need to just chill out.

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Thank you for at least looking at the data and not just talking about how top 100 doesn't matter, because it doesn't but it shows interesting trends.

Now for the rest of your post. I play a ret paladin because I like doing damage, so speccing holy would really just ruin my fun, this is a game, I like to have fun. But I digress.

Your fury and arms gear isn't the same. Thats fine. And it's true, to an extent. You will use the Plate DPS gear when your fury or arms. However if i want to spec Holy I have to farm arena points for an entirely new set of gear because +STR won't do me much good when I'm healing. There is the biggest reason that I and many other rets can't simply respec because we've invested months into getting our gear in order, and now we're slightly underpowered & about to receive another nerf we're told, oh just spec holy. It's not quite that simple.

To clear my words up: Yes fury gear isn't exactly the same as MS, however you still use the basic same gear set, while holy and ret use vastly different gearsets which means one does not simply respec (into mordor (uh wat(nevermind))).

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It's (marginally) okay for a healing spec to have a gigantic heal. It's a concern when a dps spec has a gigantic heal. The example I was making that if a non-dps spec had a huge dps button that the fact that it had a super, duper long cooldown wouldn't really satisfy anyone.

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Like Fire Elemental totem and Resto Shamen?

Or Tanking DKs and Army of the Dead?

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It's (marginally) okay for a healing spec to have a gigantic heal. It's a concern when a dps spec has a gigantic heal. The example I was making that if a non-dps spec had a huge dps button that the fact that it had a super, duper long cooldown wouldn't really satisfy anyone.

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YOu have one of these already GC it is called Army of the dead and will allow a DK to solo 2 -3 people easily especially if they are UH with ghoul. It doesn't please me when a dk Pops Army fo the dead and comes charging at me while i am at base or node. There is nothing i can do even if i pop all three of my lives. He will eventually kill me.

Please look into nerfing the hell out of Army of the Dead it is OP and no cooldown no matter how long justifies its power.

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Like Fire Elemental totem and Resto Shamen?

Or Tanking DKs and Army of the Dead?

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Fire elementals are garbage, the only OP cooldown you can compare it to is AotD and that can be interrupted(technically).

Either way, LoH is garbage just get rid of it.

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Also, I wonder how many ret paladins switch to using a shield when focus fired? Equipping a shield should give most rets an additional 15-20% physical damage reduction. I know warriors and enhancement shamans put on sword and shield when focused, but I never really see rets doing the same.

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I have 14231 armor in full Furious + Relentless offpieces, which equals 48.3% DR.
Swapping to 1H + Shield brings my armor to 22191 or 59.3% DR.

I do not know about Enh shaman, but warriors swap to a 1H and shield because in addition to the damage reduction, they also get access to new abilities, such as Spell Reflect and Shield Wall and Shield Block and Shield Bash. A Retribution paladin would gain 11% DR (a 4k crit would deal 3560 instead)... and that is it. Judgement damage plummets, Divine Storm damage plummets, AP/SP plummets, and survivability in general plummets because the paladin gets healed by all of those abilities. Not saying Mortal Strike doesn't drop in damage if used while wearing a shield + 1H, but at least the debuff doesn't get reduced in power.

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It's (marginally) okay for a healing spec to have a gigantic heal. It's a concern when a dps spec has a gigantic heal. The example I was making that if a non-dps spec had a huge dps button that the fact that it had a super, duper long cooldown wouldn't really satisfy anyone.

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I do find it problematic that said gigantic heal isn't usable in Arena, and yet it seems to be the basis of your '3 reset' argument.

Now, I'm not arguing that a Ret Paladin shouldn't be played offensively as opposed to defensively, or that it is a pain in the ass to kill a Paladin of any flavor 1 on 1 b/c of resets, but really, a Rogue/Frost Mage presents an equal number of resets. if you're going to nerf based on this ability to effectively 'reset' the fight, then please, be an equal opportunity nerfer, or present an argument not centered around resetting the fight.

Speaking as a Ret Paladin who hasn't PvP'd seriously in Arena since getting Glad on another account in S1 & S2, it is incredibly frustrating to see continuous changes centered around PvP that fundamentally change the PvE Approach, or break PvE entirely. In 2s, 3s & 5s, a Ret Paladin's damage is easily healed through unless its trained on top of a Mortal Strike. Further, because of the nature of Bubble & the forbearance redesigns since 2.0, we're effectively unable to pop Wings to play a more offensive style for fear of having them spellstolen/dispelled and subsequently getting focus fired.

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Fire elementals are garbage, the only OP cooldown you can compare it to is AotD and that can be interrupted(technically).

Either way, LoH is garbage just get rid of it.

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It still fits the bill: a long cooldown that does a lot of damage on a spec that's not built for damage.

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It still fits the bill: a long cooldown that does a lot of damage on a spec that's not built for damage.

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Fire elementals don't do a lot of damage.

that's the problem.

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I have 14231 armor in full Furious + Relentless offpieces, which equals 48.3% DR.
Swapping to 1H + Shield brings my armor to 22191 or 59.3% DR.

I do not know about Enh shaman, but warriors swap to a 1H and shield because in addition to the damage reduction, they also get access to new abilities, such as Spell Reflect and Shield Wall and Shield Block and Shield Bash. A Retribution paladin would gain 11% DR (a 4k crit would deal 3560 instead)... and that is it. Judgement damage plummets, Divine Storm damage plummets, AP/SP plummets, and survivability in general plummets because the paladin gets healed by all of those abilities. Not saying Mortal Strike doesn't drop in damage if used while wearing a shield + 1H, but at least the debuff doesn't get reduced in power.

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I think it's worth pointing out herethat the development team recognizes that plate doesn't mean anything in arena. Ghostcrawler himself has said so. Nearly every class deals magical damage or at least a (high) percentage of physical damage.

So everyone should pay attention to the paragraph, not the pretty numbers about armor class.

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Fire elementals are garbage, the only OP cooldown you can compare it to is AotD and that can be interrupted(technically).

Either way, LoH is garbage just get rid of it.

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LoH is effected by MS and yes it is too powerful just like Army of the dead. Both need to go for the sake of balance or drastically reworked.

I really don't have a problem with elementals but even than they aren't good from a balance standpoint either.

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ive said it before and ill quote it again



''its no surprise to me that the 2 most asked for abilities by ret paladins (silence/gap closer) are the 2 abilities that make prot pvp in ret gear so viable''

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Yeah, it's so strange that one ability that happens to Silence AND daze, makes the tanking paladin tree viable out of the blue.

Just like wearing Holy gear makes them all of the sudden the best pvp healing spec....


Ghostcrawler, is blizzard, fully aware, trying to make Protection paladins the tree for both PvP healing and PvP dpsing?

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WHEN I POST IN CAPS CURSE SPEAK FOR ALL PALADINS AND REFRAIN FROM PUNCTUATION EXCEPT AT THE END OF MY SENTENCE WHERE I USE EXTRA YOU CAN'T ARGUE WITH MY LOGIC!!!!!!!

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Are you out of breath?


Just wondering.

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this thread is not about arms warriors nor arms vrs fury in pvp, but even if it were let me make one thing clear

Look I'll even stop @!%#-posting and use punctuation so you know I'm serious. The Warrior class has two DPS talent trees, fury and arms. If you want to DPS in arena and arms is better than the fury tree, you can respec to arms. The gear differences don't matter. It's somewhat akin to the "hybrid tax" that Ghostcrawler posted and stickied in this very forum. If the Paladin class has one DPS talent tree and it underperforms (doesn't exist in high level arena, according to the latest post) in high level arena, they cannot respec to DPS. Period. It's the exact same as rogues coming on here and demanding 1500 more DPS than other classes because they cannot respec to tank or heal if a raid is full of DPS.

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I know this isn't about warriors, this is about having to spec another spec to do well in arenas. What YOU aren't understanding is that it doesn't matter, we both have to change our spec to do our best in arena. I never said that it's fair, I never said that's how it should be, but again, we both have to change our spec to do our best in arena. It's just that ret pallys constantly complain about it and most other classes do complain about it, but keep it to a minimum. This thread is also about ret being nerfed. I'm not saying it should be, but you guys really gotta chill out and not make 1193289 posts a day about being nerfed. Warriors did it when tg was nerfed and all I did was facepalm because people can be so stupid.