---

Q u o t e:


Not trolling. Nobody on my realm arenas with a fury warrior. I either go arms or I don't arena. Plenty of ret pallys that pvp though. So no, we're not as viable as ret. And I'm forced to go arms, which I don't want to be. Pallys seem to feel like they have to go holy, just as I have to go arms. So, we're pretty much going through the same thing, except warriors aren't whining about that. And at any rate, I never said pallys needed nerfs, all I said was stop acting like a baby if you are being nerfed whether it's justified or not. If you really cared about the class you would keep playing it. If they nerfed warriors to be the worst class in the game, I would still play it and not complain, even though I would still think it's stupid and unjustified because I love warriors.

---

I don't care what anyone on your realm does.

The fact is there are more FURY warriors above 2k and 2.2k in arena than there are rets.

So what are you complaining about?

---

Q u o t e:


And? I like fury a lot more than I like arms, and it means I have to play a spec I don't want to play. You like ret a lot more than holy, but if you want to arena, you have to play a spec you don't want to play.

---

It's more of a spec AND a role we don't want to play. It's like a dps maniac priest wanting to raid dps as shadow, and then is forced to use his dual spec with his lv 219/226 to heal in TOTC instead or dpsing with his 245 gear, because today they want to have someone else that has a better dps tree play.

Also Holy spec for PvP is laughable, most players that want to heal sadly shelter themselves in Prot...

To me GC with all these comments you have made in here and over the past few weeks and comments made from 3.2 that your vision is not as simple as all spec should be Viable and that is not what we mean by vision. Vision is not whether the spec is supported or not. Vision is where do plan to take the spec what Role do you want the spec to play how do you want it to play. This is what we mean by vision and this not what you are explaining to the community for this class the specs of this and for the most part other classes.

Also you have said in 3.2 with the damage nerf to Ret that you liked how games played out once you got past the opening and Rets group defenses were able to come into play. This to me says you like the defensive play style of Ret. However now you are saying the class as a whole is to defensive and especially Ret so you deem it necessary to nerf its defensive utility the one reason Ret may be taken over more offensive minded DPS specs. And this nerf is one to our only Dependable defense that we have.

Also you stated under reasoning for these nerfs that you would like the ability to be useful for all three specs this however does the opposite and make it only useful for 1. So i stress to you to reevaluate this nerf or make it a talent in Holy, doing away with Divine Favor and Switching Divine illumination to Divine Favors Spot and SS to where DI is. And possibly look at Adding a C/D to it but allowing use on multiple targets again maybe 1 per paladin in the raid. allowing it not to gain a whole lot of STR in PvP.

Also you state that Paladin as a whole seem to defensive and this is where i will reiterate a point that has been brought up thousands of times about Paladins. The baseline Paladin class is built as a Support defensive class and not a class that has the potential to DPS, hea,l or Tank depending on where they would prefer to focus their time. This si where the problem lies and i would stress to you that maybe not know but in Cataclysm(what should of been done in WotLK) is a rework of the baseline Paladin class. An overhaul if you want to call it that but to me more so shifting abilities from talent trees to baseline and Baseline to Talent trees adjusting as needed.

The thing is baseline Paladin class does not support the vision of "this class is no longer a support class but one with three defined roles depending on where you place your talent Points". Instead the baseline class is still holding on to the old vision of " You are a defensive Hybrid that is built to support heal while tossing out powerful defensive Buffs"

Paladin as a whole need to support the trees baseline through a series of abilities that have been tossed into the talent trees instead of baseline and the majority of these defensive baseline abilities need to be into the talent trees where the purpose is needed and in some cases done away with altogether or reworked drastically.

I also think that Divine shield is really holding this class back and this ability and the forbearance debuff that come along with it need to be reworked. These immunity abilities pose a huge problem not just for people going against them but for the class themselves. Ice block seems to fine as it prevents the mage from attacking and just grants the mage some time till it can get a heal However Divine shield allows the Paladin to heal himself or deal substantially reduced damage while waiting for a heal. Something has to Give and i think it is the ability as a whole with the rework of DP in wrath DS really doesn't need to be in our toolkit.

I also feel that you have made it too easy for Paladins to be defensive while playing pretty offensively(speaking of Ret). IMO you should take more of a warrior model to Ret and Make Sword and Board a Viable option. Currently that is not a viable option. As for Holy, i think Holy could stand to loose some defensive potential but Atm it is lacking it offensive potential compared to every other healer. No real CC that can be used offensively, none of our attacks really scale for holy. Unlike all the other healers we don't really add anything offensively when damage being taken is low but what we do bring is the largest array of defensive tools. This is the real reason prot/Holy is prefered in 2's and low rating 3's the added offensive potential the Prot tree bring is huge and is a must in 2's with the power of healers. and In low level 3's people aren't that great at interrupting our only 2 heals team that up with a very durable spec in Prot and you get success.

IMO you should be looking at nerfing the amount of offense utility Prot brings and not nerfing its abilities to take Hits with SS. Like you said when worrying about a Prot Pally you should worry about their ability to take hits not Heal or do substantial damage. However you are nerfing their ability to take hits while doing nothing about the damage. The healing in healing gear will always be there unless you nerf the hell out of our baseline Heal scaling and buff the crap out of it in Deep Holy.

It seems the Devs feel that Paladins as a whole are to defensive so why not remove some of that Defensive utility and put more offensive utility in Place. It seems to me like you want to gut the only thing Paladins Really have going for them which is their defensive utility and replace it with nothing. This leaves a class broken, maybe it can survive because it is able to switch functionality too easily but it is still broken whether it is OP or not.

Taking your own logic towards OP spells, a class can be broken even though it can functionally perform its roles gutting the defensive capabilities of this class for 2/3 specs breaks the class as a whole even though the class as a whole may be able to survive and function. It is still broken, the high amount of defenses is what makes the Paladin unique and what the Paladin is built around. That is what we are at our core and if that Idea/vision of this class as changed from that than class at its core need to represent that change in vision.

Also GC what s your opinion on OP if in a 1v1 match i am able to go through 3 lives of a paladin before he can even go through my one. Who is the real OP person here? To me it seems like the player who can take the Paladin through 3 lives before their one. And we do feel the target of 1v1 complaints and balance. Rogues are dominate in 1v1 with Stun locks yet nothing has remotely been done to change CS ->KS->Blind-> re stealth and open again with another CS. Also if LoH is really a problem than you should also take a look at army of dead which can destroy people when used and literally turns the DK into a army. You might as well think of eliminating abilities like this all together if they really are this big of a problem.

---

Q u o t e:


I don't care what anyone on your realm does.

The fact is there are more FURY warriors above 2k and 2.2k in arena than there are rets.

So what are you complaining about?

---

ret survivability is too great

Other classes representation has nothing to do with the fact that ret survivability is too great.

---

Q u o t e:


And? I like fury a lot more than I like arms, and it means I have to play a spec I don't want to play. You like ret a lot more than holy, but if you want to arena, you have to play a spec you don't want to play.

---

http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/Warrior/

Prot has: 2.9% Rep in the top100
Fury has: 6.8% Rep in the top 100

http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/Paladin/

Ret has: 0.0% Rep in the top 100

I know Representation isnt the be all of balance but 0% vs the garbage post you made about wah I have to spec MS. You really don't. You just need the right team. We on the other hand have nothing to get to the top with as our DD role. Also Fury = Same gear as MS. We don't just sit on 9k+ Arena pts and 350k Honor to switch gear on a whim.

---

Q u o t e:


http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/Warrior/

Prot has: 2.9% Rep in the top100
Fury has: 6.8% Rep in the top 100

http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings/3v3/Paladin/

Ret has: 0.0% Rep in the top 100

I know Representation isnt the be all of balance but 0% vs the garbage post you made about wah I have to spec MS. You really don't. You just need the right team. We on the other hand have nothing to get to the top with as our DD role. Also Fury = Same gear as MS. We don't just sit on 9k+ Arena pts and 350k Honor to switch gear on a whim.

---

Ret survivability is too great

Low arena representation doesnt mean a class is any less unbalanced.

Ret survivability is too great.

We care about Sk100. Seriously, we do. Hang on while i go make a poster of the website to hang in my bedroom.

---

Q u o t e:

I'll add it's also a problem where paladins as a whole are too defensive and not just the Protection spec ones. You see people describing fighting a Retribution paladin as a three phase boss fight. You might get them down, but then they can reset the fight with Lay on Hands. You get them down again and they bubble and heal. Compare this to an Arms warrior -- do they do great damage in PvP? Yes. Are they invulnerable? No. It's cool for paladins to care more about healing than do warriors, for I hope obvious reasons. However, if you are up against a Holy paladin, you should know that one of your greatest challenges should be dealing with their capacity to heal. If you are up against a Prot paladin, you should be concerned with their capacity to take hits. If you are up against a Ret paladin, you should be concerned with how much damage they should deal. You should not, generally, be nearly as concerend about the Prot's ability to self-heal or the Ret's ability to tank you.

---

Ghost, I played a Paladin since closed beta up till the BC and then switched. Let me tell you what I think the main issue is here.

The paladin is 3 role Hybrid. Tank/DPS/Healer and the issue comes from those abilities being in the 'base' talents of the class and across all roles which gives you a class that has dps, healing, defensive shielding, and a quick full heal.

UNLIKE the Shaman, the shaman is a Melee DPS/Spell DPS/Healer hybrid. Shamans end up being the 'OFFENSIVE' hybrid

For Druids, you have the Tank/Melee DPS/Spell DPS/Healer hybrid, but that requires the class to be in that 'form' or spec to do that roll most of the time. Druids are the 'true' hybrid.

So when you look at Shamans and Paladins, you would think the Paladin would be the 'DEFENSIVE' hybrid...the Tank/Healer style. Either go Tank/Tank/Healer (with 2 types of tank styles) or go Tank/Healer/Healer with something similar to DISC for the paladin like a priest has for PvP.

So really, it should look something more like this for your hybrid roles.

DRUID - True Hybrid - Tank/Melee DPS/Spell DPS/Healer
SHAMAN - Offensive Hybrid - Melee DPS/Spell DPS/Healer
PALADIN - Defensive Hybrid - Tank DPS/Healer PvE/Healer PvP
PRIEST - DPS/Healer PvE/Healer PvP
WARRIOR - DPS/DPS/Tank

I personally don't believe you can work DPS into the Paladin class with all the defensive/healing survival of the class. It just will never be balanced or correct.

If we're balancing around 1v1 now, shouldn't this patch include a multitude of frost mage nerfs?

EDIT: As a side note, I'm pretty unimpressed with my ret's damage AND survivability against (key words here people) geared and skilled players in an arena environment. On the upside, at least it will barely be punishing when I forget to change who the sacred shield is on now. I guess

---

Q u o t e:


Why bother having a level 80 ability that absorbs a grand total of 2k damage at best every 30 seconds for 12% of your mana pool unless you're holy? Why not just put it in the holy tree and be done with it instead of gutting it and leaving ret with yet another useless baseline ability?

---

Agreed. I never use it since why blow 12% of my mana for a 30s buff for 2k damage absorb? Make it holy only then. So what if that means pallies get no level 80 spells. I'd rather have no spells than a spell that only one spec would only ever bother using.

---

Q u o t e:
If we're balancing around 1v1 now, shouldn't this patch include a multitude of frost mage nerfs?

---

except GC blantantly said they are not spotlighting ret for 1v1 balancing.

L2read.

Ret surivability overall is too great.

You want surviability? Roll prot or holy

---

Q u o t e:
If we're balancing around 1v1 now, shouldn't this patch include a multitude of frost mage nerfs?

---

---

Q u o t e:
We care about Sk100. Seriously, we do. Hang on while i go make a poster of the website to hang in my bedroom.

---

If you read my post, and not just close your eyes and scream LALALALLA you'll see that I also let eveyone know that Representation doesn't mean everything, his post was a giant QQfest about how he can't be fury, I was merely showing him that him being fury is perfectly viable according to numbers.

The rest of you don't actually provide any data however, you just sit there making snide remarks or screaming NERF RET at the top of your lungs when you clearly don't even understand basic game mechanics.

---

Q u o t e:


I don't care what anyone on your realm does.

The fact is there are more FURY warriors above 2k and 2.2k in arena than there are rets.

So what are you complaining about?

---

There aren't, and if there are, I can't find anything proving that. I can look at the top 100 and see more ret pallys than fury warriors though. The thing that's most annoying is pallys flooding in crying about getting nerfed all the time. You guys really need to learn how to take a nerf.

---

Q u o t e:


Judgement > CS > DS - 3 attacks

Procs/Situational:
Consecration - AoE, lol
Exorcism - 1.5 sec cast or proc, you can't cast it while facerolling, have to proc
Hammer of Wrath - under 20%, a ranged iwin button

And I don't have to know how to count past 3 to appreciate how delicious pally tears are. Every time they get a nerf it's like Christmas. No class with such high survivability and noob friendliness should be doing such high DPS.

Frankly, I think they should add a -% healing to pally talents. Say, if you take Crusader Strike your overall healing is reduced by 15%. If you take Repentance it is reduced by another 15%, etc... until it reaches a cap, say, -75% healing or something. Also, maybe other talents increase the cooldown or reduce the duration of bubble or makes it so bubble reduces the damage you do in it up to 100%. These same talents could be added to prot tree talents. And defensive ability nerfs could be added to the holy tree. Please consider this GC!

---

despite your trolling i agree with you


i think one of the best revamps of the paladin class would be to have judgement return a FULL mana bar and heals drain (A LOT OF) mana for the duration of the cast, like a channeling spell, so that a ret paladin couldn't just heal all day with their inifinite mana, but could fit one in a rotation or a big ones with holy light if they wanted to wait on their judgement cooldown

couple that with attacks charging up depending on where they are used before the judgement (eg first attacks are weaker, the attack before judgement is the strongest) and remove the cooldowns on the attacks and you could start over with the class and have a combat system that is different than a rogues warriors or death knights, and could be single target or aoe depending on the situation

you could even remove seals from the GCD and have hand spells from the seal currently equipped, so that attacks would be delayed for 1.5s after

anyways i thought up a whole system for remaking ret paladins along these lines at one time but i've never wanted to post it ;3