---

Q u o t e:



If we gave warriors (especially Prot warriors) an ability to cause 50,000 damage in one hit with no preparation on a 90-minute cooldown, most reasonable players would call that a balance problem. The long cooldown doesn't save it.

---

But that would just be insane. LoH doesn't hurt anyone :(

---

Q u o t e:

Reading comprehension is your friend .
Let me try it from your angle, Pallys should beable to kill everyone and not be killed by anyone right? cause being able to heal to full when someone has "owned" you is just not enough.
c wut i did thar
And to add it doesnt take pallys three lives to kill someone just cause they can't kill people in a global

---

Reading comprehension is your friend.

Lay on Hands has a twenty minute cooldown. Yes, Ret pallies should be able to come back from almost dead and kill someone every twenty minutes. Where's the QQ about Soulstones? Or Reincarnation? Or VB + Death pact? Or Desperate Prayer? Or Cloak + Evasion? Or any of a hundred other survival combos that are on shorter cooldowns than Lay on Hands?

Dear developers: It can't be used in arena anyway. You nerfed our burst at 70. You nerfed our burst at 80. Twice. You nerfed our seal to give it a ramp up time. Now you're nerfing our survivability, in both arenas and (for God's sake) Battlegrounds and 1v1 WORLD FREAKIN PVP? What happened to "we don't balance 1v1, we balance for 3's"?

Well, here's some balance for you. The top 50 3's teams in the world contain 150 people, 25 of them paladins. 22 are Holy, 2 are Prot, and 1 is Ret. That is decidedly NOT balancing for 3's.

Oh, and GC, this is for you specifically. Saying that people are going Holy but playing like Ret is one of three things: Utterly misinformed, flat out lying, or looking at low-end PvP. I am assuming you are not misinformed or a liar, so I will tackle the third possibility. Stop looking at low-end PvP. Skilled players do not play as Ret in a Holy spec. Those 22 Holy paladins? Every one of them went 51 points into Holy. Anyone using Beacon of Light is NOT playing as Ret playstyle. Pay attention to high-end PvP more. It is not realistic to balance around low-end PvP because skill gaps are much bigger there. A big, powerful cooldown like LoH is exponentially more powerful in unskilled PvP because the players don't know how to counter it. If a palladin's bubble goes its full duration, it is painful. If Lay on Hands hits for 100%, it is painful. However, a single RMP team can destroy a ret paladin with Wound Poison and Mass Dispel. Hell, a single Arms warrior can neutralize BOTH of a paladin's big cooldowns by himself. And that's if LoH were able to work in arena anyway.

STOP BALANCING YOUR GAME AROUND THE UNSKILLED PLAYERS.

Whatever, we learned a long time ago that only anti-paladin QQ works. You guys have some sort of resistance to pro-paladin posts. We can live with the nerfs. We'll keep going. Hey, at least you've given us a trade off for no longer being able to kill anyone or prevent our own deaths. At least now we can interrupt spellcasts and have an offensive dispel and a gap closer and a snare and a recastable CC that lasts the same duration as every other class' CC and-

Crap.

GC's second post in this thread sounds like a complaint from Classic, and is oddly self-contradicting.

"Rets are too tanky because they can reset the fight 3 times"

But this fails to take into account that this generally doesn't happen in arenas thanks to Shattering Throw and Mass Dispel (and due to the fact that LoH is on such a long cooldown; it can't be used in arenas, and only once in most battlegrounds)

"If you are up against a Ret paladin, you should be concerned with how much damage they should deal. You should not, generally, be nearly as concerend about the Prot's ability to self-heal or the Ret's ability to tank you."

This makes even less sense; in your own example (within the same post) the Ret Paladin was unable to kill his opponent once while getting killed three times.

Does this mean Ret damage is too low?
Does this mean people aren't concerned with Ret damage?
Does this mean the Ret's offensive utility is low enough that they're effectively 33% of the other classes?

I'm really confused.

Per GC:

---

Q u o t e:



There is plenty of evidence that we haven’t nerfed them enough.

---

What I would like to see him explain is what evidence they see, i.e. do the devs feel that paladins are excessively successful in:
1) Arena teams?
2) BGs?
3) Wintergrasp?
4) Duels?
5) PvE (dps/healing/tanking)?

Cause, well, my dps as prot pve spec in a duel is kinda lousy (in 226'ish tank gear). It might take em a while to kill me, but they will... unless they really aren't paying any attention. I certainly don't feel all that op, I actually feel like I'm bringing a knife to a gun fight. And don't get me started about my dps as holy. So, if it is #4 then I guess you're talking about ret duels?

---

Q u o t e:


Because no other class can reset the fight eh?

Mage - Invis, poly/eat, poly/evocate, and straight up ridiculous kiting
Rogue - Vanish, blind to stealth, gouge + run to stealth
Druid - Full cyclone to run to stealth, can root melee classes (sans ret) and escape
Warlock - Full fear and mount/retreat ( this made me laugh)
Priest - Full fear and mount/retreat ( and this)

The difference with the paladin's combat reset is that he doesn't have the option of escape. They don't have the option to close the gap either lawl.

---

A pally can reset the fight so to speak during the fight not retreat and reset it. And since when have Warlocks been fearing to mount up? Most of the time when a lock uses fear it is broke right away and the lock gained what, 5 yards? And how is repentance not a gap closer? I wouldn't say it is the best at that but then if everyone had exactly the same abilities we would not have much of a difference in classes cept for what armor they wear.
The jist I get from your comments here is that you want to be neigh unkillable, beable to heal to full more than once, be able to escape from anyone, and should be able to compete in arenas as any spec you want, but hey even though every other class doesn't get that privelege pallys should amirite?

---

Q u o t e:


Does this mean Ret damage is too low?
Does this mean people aren't concerned with Ret damage?
Does this mean the Ret's offensive utility is low enough that they're effectively 33% of the other classes?

I'm really confused.

---

I think you are not nearly as confused as you are trolling.

It means Ret have to much defensives skill and that even a Ret in blue who shouldn't bother someone in full epics will be an annoyance in a BG while a rogue would be a "lol free hk".

---

Q u o t e:


That's what I want to see lol...there's plenty of it...where? What is he looking at. The sad part is that his mind is made up thus I'm sure he's got his team actively working on ways to keep people from feeling like Ret is a "3 phase boss fight"

Nevermind a class that kills Ret after they bubble and heal to full should be brought into question...and a class that kills them after LoH and Bubble obviously has too much survivability themselves.

If it is common practice for Ret's to bubble or Rets to LoH why? Why are they needing a 2nd or 3rd life so often. What is broken in the design that they can't compete without that 2nd or 3rd life?

The half assed fixes are getting old. Let's look at Offensive Utility since we aren't "blowing up people" anymore and then we can work on dropping some of our "Boss phases".

---

TL/DR: Burst is not an issue. It's a red herring. Blizzard says the issue is survivability, and while I don't know you personally, I'd be willing to bet my mage that they are far more qualified and capable than you to spot the "real issue." The person you quoted and /loved on added nothing to the conversation, even though he used the word "respectfully."

Let's not forget, Blizzard has access to numbers and figures you don't. Respecs, number of spells used, the damage each spell used during a matchup did, the amount of damage absorbed vs. damage done, etc.

While arena figures are worthy stat crunches, and recount is a good indication of how well YOU preform with your team in each individual match, none of us has access to the tools and number crunches that Blizzard uses. They can nit pick and find patterns that we just can't with our limited resources.

Now, whether or not you agree with them keeping those numbers close to the chest is up to you. Me personally? I know for a fact that dealing with and manipulating statistics so that you can get decent conclusions is an art form and a science, one which requires a surprising amount of study and time to master, regardless of what people say about "Prob. and Stat" being the easy math. Many people believe themselves to be in that category of learned statisticians when they are not; or, they see some seemingly black and white numbers and make sweeping generalizations when in fact there is much more going on than meets the eye. I believe that if Blizzard were to release their numbers, the forums would be flooded with armchair analyzers jockeying for buffs, screaming numbers and "facts" at Blizzard....I picture the Obama birthers actually. Ghostcrawler wouldn't get a word in edgewise.

Ghostcrawler already provided numbers available to the public that have been grossly misused in an argument, and people either misunderstood or refused to acknowledge his point.

---

Q u o t e:

This is just “don’t nerf me, bro” talk. We have been so gentle with paladin nerfs because we’ve been so concerned with returning to lolret, that paladins as a class are still very powerful in end-game LK in both PvE and PvP. Yes, it’s not fun to be nerfed. We get that. There is very little evidence we have over-nerfed paladins at any time in the past couple of years. There is plenty of evidence that we haven’t nerfed them enough.

---

Plenty of evidence? What evidence? You've exposed the armory for the world to see. All of the top arena teams, their players, and their specs are known to everyone. Ret spec already has become lolret by every measurement possible (top 100, #above 2k, #above 2.2k, 3s, 2s, 5s, realm history, arena junkies, sk-gaming, etc. etc. ).

All this talk about paladin having 3 lives and being "exceptionally tanky" makes it sound suspiciously like you are balancing this game around battleground combat or duels, which are COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS. You are the designers forcing us to go into Arena to gain top notch pvp gear, so you should be balancing around Arena. Lay on hands... what a joke. How did this skill even make it into the conversation? Since Wotlk was released, rets have had 2 tools in arena: burst and (purgable) defensive utility. You've completely nerfed our burst, and now with the sacred shield change you will be removing a HUGE portion of our defensive utility, and yet somehow you think these changes have been gentle? That the lack of ret representation at high level is because we've respecc'd to prot and holy, and not because of our lack of viability? When every other class brings just as good burst, with better utility, and ret's sacred shield becomes a joke, how is ret supposed to justify our place on the team?

I'll ask again, as I have many times on this forum, doesn't the fact that you've got paladins respeccing to prot and holy indicate there are problems with the ret paladin tree? Where is this mysterious evidence that indicates ret paladins haven't been nerfed enough? Please, show us what we are missing...

Whats missing in PvP is consistancy.

PvP spec DPS shouldn't have the capacity to tank multiple opponents unless they receive heals. Even with heals only for a short time.

Tank spec PvP classes should with heals be capable of tanking multiple DPS however their DPS shouldn't be high enough to easily kill those DPS OR save their healer without help.

Healing specs should have the ability to tank 2 DPS with good play but only 2 and then by only focusing on healing themselves.

Currently most of the classes follow these rules. For a very long time DKs did not but now they do. Pallys, however, do not in any of their 3 specs.

---

Q u o t e:
If we gave warriors (especially Prot warriors) an ability to cause 50,000 damage in one hit with no preparation on a 90-minute cooldown, most reasonable players would call that a balance problem. The long cooldown doesn't save it. Beyond some point you can't balance a very powerful ability just by increasing the cooldown.

In general, we've been moving away from long cooldowns anyway.

---

If players arent allowed to use hyperbole's in an argument, don't use them yourself. LoH isn't a problem. Never has been. All of a sudden 3.3 comes around and it's OP? Where's the nerf to army of the dead? It's an I win button in one versus one situations and has a shorter cooldown than LoH.

---

Q u o t e:
This argument pops on the paladin forums all the time, but I've never heard it explained why it's overpowered for a paladin to be able to reset a fight twice with bubble and lay on hands (not in arena mind you) but it's not overpowered for someone to be able to kill a paladin 3x without being in fear for his own life?

---

The problem would be when the opponent can't kill the paladin three times before himself dying.

If GC claims to have a vision for Paladins as a whole, then I have no reason to doubt him. I have no evidence to the contrary other than our tumultuous history which had/has little to do with him.

I have only my opinion. Here it is, for what it's worth.

I'm going to bypass comparing Ret paladins to Holy, because we all know the details there.

Warriors as we all know scale as the expansion continues better than any other class. They do easily as much damage as me..easily, in any given 3v3 game. When Cataclysm drops, they'll go back to sucking for 2 seasons. Looking forward to that. But for now, they are Gods amongst men in 3s. Pair them with an unholy DK to keep everyone in place, and lookout.

DKs are the class most similar to Ret Paladins in that they lack an MS but do loads of damage. Difference is they have a gap closer, interrupt, silence, multiple snares, and a pet with a stun. If we are the 'defensive hybrid' then DK's are the 'offensive hybrid.' And in this expansion where the best defense is a good offense....well, you get the idea.

Rogues, wow where to start. I have an alt rogue with a titansteel shanker and 350 resil who lasts twice as long as my Ret Paladin in 3s. You might say that's because my rogue is only in the 1800 bracket whereas my Ret is in the 2300 bracket. I would then counter that if Ret Paladins can be nerfed for dominating lower brackets, then they can also be buffed for getting wtfpwnt in higher brackets. Regardless of your opinion on the matter, Rogues and Rets aren't really comparable, one has every PvP tool, the other is a Ret.

Enh Shaman, another good comparison. A hybrid with heals. Grounding totem, short CD interrupt, snare, offensive dispel, pets, poison cleanse, disease cleanse. If Rets are the defensive hybrid, and DKs are the offensive hybrid, then what are Enh Shamans?? Batman? Unfortunately, they are relatively squishy until max gear making it hard to progress unless you find yourself a nice Beast Cleave.

Prot Paladin, aka the Anti-Christ of Paladin specs. They have everything Ret has and more. Damage, silence/snare, Imp HoJ, insane survivability. I refuse to spec Prot for pvp out of spite. The fact that a tank is better in arena than me is silly, especially considering that GC thinks we're too 'tanky.' If Rets are so tanky, then why are so many Rets going Prot to be successful!?

I will continue to believe, again, my opinion only, that Ret will continue to suffer until the Demi-God spec known as Holy Paladins are brought into line with other Healing classes. Blizzard and GC don't dare 'fix'(I use that term lightly) Ret Paladins for fear of 25% Pally Representation again like in early Wrath seasons. Paladins are already the highest rep'd class. No way they're gonna buff even the worst of the 3 specs. It's just not happening. It doesn't make any sense for them.

My advice to all my Ret family out there is to enjoy Battlegrounds and duels while you can. Stay out of arena, it's a big headache anyway. Get your 1800 weapon, ya know, since we dominate lower brackets, and get your Battlemaster achievements done. It's a sweet title imo.

---

Q u o t e:


We don't think "Sure I can heal myself for 25,000+ health as a dps spec or 50,000+ health as a tank, but not very often," is balanced. Abilities can be unbalanced even if overall a character is not.

This isn't a non-issue just because it doesn't affect Arenas. Also, it doesn't mean paladins are being singled out for one-vs-one duel balance (though I'm sure I'm going to be reading that for months to come).

If we gave warriors (especially Prot warriors) an ability to cause 50,000 damage in one hit with no preparation on a 90-minute cooldown, most reasonable players would call that a balance problem. The long cooldown doesn't save it. Beyond some point you can't balance a very powerful ability just by increasing the cooldown.

In general, we've been moving away from long cooldowns anyway.

---

OK we got it already. You've nerfed it on the 3.3 PTR, if that's not enough remove the damn ability please.

SS nerfed to the ground for ret paladins to be less tanky, OK that's fine too.

Now that they only have (2) lives, and cannot tank every 6 seconds, burst is middle of the pack, can we get some word on offensive utility and/or crusader strike blandness please?

---

Q u o t e:

GC sez go Holy IS what most of us are getting from this. Ret's personal defense in arena isn't that strong and you're nerfing it. The only logical conclusion is to respec to something else or reroll.

---

Or accept that your class, excuse me Spec, has a weakness you will have to learn to overcome to play at your best.

Welcome to the world the rest of us live in.

---

Q u o t e:


We don't think "Sure I can heal myself for 25,000+ health as a dps spec or 50,000+ health as a tank, but not very often," is balanced. Abilities can be unbalanced even if overall a character is not.

This isn't a non-issue just because it doesn't affect Arenas. Also, it doesn't mean paladins are being singled out for one-vs-one duel balance (though I'm sure I'm going to be reading that for months to come).

If we gave warriors (especially Prot warriors) an ability to cause 50,000 damage in one hit with no preparation on a 90-minute cooldown, most reasonable players would call that a balance problem. The long cooldown doesn't save it. Beyond some point you can't balance a very powerful ability just by increasing the cooldown.

In general, we've been moving away from long cooldowns anyway.

---

Why "especially prot warriors"? I thought we were talking about DPS specs? You know, the specs WITHOUT all those built in survival talents that they have to give up DPS for?

Besides that, sure it would be balanced, overall. It wouldn't be usable in arena. it would be a free world kill, once every 90 minutes, and that's assuming the other player wasn't prepared for it. Skilled players would just pop Dispersion, or Pain Sup, or Guardian Spirit, or Evasion, or Divine Shield, or IBF/Bone Shield/VB, or Barkskin, or some other long cooldown that would counter that ability.

Wait, are we not supposed to be comparing cooldowns to cooldowns? Then yes, giving ANY class a cooldown ability against someone WITHOUT a cooldown ability is OP. That is a stupid argument. We have to compare a class at the peak of its survival versus a class at the peak of its destructive potential. If a mage blows Icy Veins and Arcane Power and I DON'T blow my bubble, I didn't lose because the mage is OP. I lost because I'm dumb.

Will you please just get this over with and Take away Divine Shield already? That is the core issue at the heart of every single Pally QQ thread. Just get rid of it and give us some real PvP utility and you won't have to worry about forcing paladins to do 30% of the damage other classes do in PvP just to make it even. Give us a toolbox with more in it than a sledgehammer and people will stop complaining about being hit over the head too hard, and we will all stop complaining about not being able to do anything except hit people over the head. It's not any more fun for us than it is for them, I assure you.

It's an odd thing to most arena players (and yes, I do understand that we're not the only ones you're considering when balancing this issue) that there'd be so much fuss over bubble and layonhands making 1v1 or BG situations so unpleasant for people that Blizz feels the need to nerf paladins.

If bubble and layonhands are the problem, why not nerf them? I wouldn't complain one bit if you left SS as is and simply REMOVED LoHs. Or make bubble a 75% dmg reduction but let us use wings or shield wall again.

And while I know you guys don't like looking at top end arena distribution for balance indicators, I feel it's still important to note the total LACK of ret paladins in the 2300+ area. They're simply too squishy, don't provide enough utility, and don't hit hard enough.

Anyway, if it helps, here's me putting in yet another voice saying, please reconsider. This is going to suck royally for Ret in competitive arena.

---

Q u o t e:


This argument pops on the paladin forums all the time, but I've never heard it explained why it's overpowered for a paladin to be able to reset a fight twice with bubble and lay on hands (not in arena mind you) but it's not overpowered for someone to be able to kill a paladin 3x without being in fear for his own life?

The class is reliant on long cooldowns. I think we can all agree that this needs to change.

---

I think this is a valid point. If it takes bubble+LoH+healing for a pally to kill another player in a duel/BG/Wintergrasp then any of the following may be true:
1) there is a significant skill discrepancy
2) there is a significant gear discrepancy
3) the paladin can't put out enough dps/cc/counters in 3 lifes (bubble+LoH+heals) to overcome the other player's health pool

And, GC, not to poke at you, but in reading your comments, you often take an extreme example, i.e. the 50k damage example. Obviously, that would end the fight, unless the other player was able to counter it. Healing yourself, no matter what class, doesn't end a fight, it (hopefully) prolongs it. My point is that the extreme examples don't really validate (or invalidate) your point. Not that that matters, cause what you and the other devs think/do is really what matters, not what we (the players) think/say/do.