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Q u o t e:

We actually have a pretty good vision for the paladin. In fact, we've always had a strong vision for what the class should be, but that vision has also changed over time.

I think the bigger issue may be that we don't necessarily have the same vision that some players might have.

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Taken from this thread:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20677581780&sid=1

If the players have a different vision than the development team...well whose job is it to convey the vision of the classes of WoW? Even in the thread where you state the player base probably has a different vision you don't tell us yours nor Blizz's vision of the Paladin.

Paladins didn't officially find out we were supposed to be healers in vanilla WoW until the Q&A a few months back when the dev team stated it. In vanilla WoW there were numerous post from blues and annoying players (i.e. Ellia) pretending Ret and Prot were completely viable in vanilla. And in the Q&A we find out vanilla never intended Ret or Prot to be viable end game specs. Even though all signs pointed to Paladins being pigeon-holed into healing end game there was never any official mention of it. Which left many Ret and Prot pallies banging their head against a brick wall that only gave way when the development team decided Paladins should DPS and tank.

The blame for this falls at the feet of your team GC.

Here we are, many years later and the vision of Blizzard apparently differs from that of the Paladin base yet again. Many players (Paladin and non-Paladin) don't feel Ret should be viable DPS because we have a valid tanking tree and valid healing tree. The tanking/healing hybrid is being thrown around now. Many believe Ret is fine in PvE (I agree) and that Holy should be our PvP spec (This seems to be the popular view these days but I don't agree).

The question that remains to be answered is, "Which vision is shared by Blizzard?"

It all boils down to communication. Can Blizzard truly say they have clearly communicated their vision with the Paladin community? I think not. Even something as simple as saying, "The intended and most efficient role of a Paladin in arena is Holy" (yes...Prot/Holy is more efficient atm) but at least we know what direction GC and his team are headed. At least we know Blizzards vision.

At that point the argument may change to "Blizzard's vision of the Paladin is all wrong" but with all the changes in directions to Paladins (which seems to coincide with expac releases). I don't think it is entirely unfair to say, "Blizzard has no vision of the Paladin". Because your vision hasn't been communicated properly.

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Q u o t e:
Paladins didn't officially find out we were supposed to be healers in vanilla WoW until the Q&A a few months back when the dev team stated it. In vanilla WoW there were numerous post from blues and annoying players (i.e. Ellia) pretending Ret and Prot were completely viable in vanilla. And in the Q&A we find out vanilla never intended Ret or Prot to be viable end game specs. Even though all signs pointed to Paladins being pigeon-holed into healing end game there was never any official mention of it. Which left many Ret and Prot pallies banging their head against a brick wall that only gave way when the development team decided Paladins should DPS and tank.

The blame for this falls at the feet of your team GC.

Here we are, many years later and the vision of Blizzard apparently differs from that of the Paladin base yet again. Many players (Paladin and non-Paladin) don't feel Ret should be viable DPS because we have a valid tanking tree and valid healing tree. The tanking/healing hybrid is being thrown around now. Many believe Ret is fine in PvE (I agree) and that Holy should be our PvP spec (This seems to be the popular view these days but I don't agree).

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Both of the points made in these two paragraphs (three, really) are completely outrageous. You're talking out of your ass, friend.

Long story short: You just want to know what Blizzard's vision for Paladins are.

Assuming what the vision is has failed, might as well ask for a defiant answer hm?

Because at the moment, it looks like they are constantly grasping as straws, hoping this series of buffs or this series of nerfs will fix everything.

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Q u o t e:
Long story short: You just want to know what Blizzard's vision for Paladins are.

Assuming what the vision is has failed, might as well ask for a defiant answer hm?

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Do you mean a "definite" answer?

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Q u o t e:


Both of the points made in these two paragraphs (three, really) are completely outrageous. You're talking out of your ass, friend.

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I really wish that you (blizz employees) would stop posting in players forums on level 1 through 10 alts. I mean at least have the balls to do it on your blue writers, even if you still have the urge to call someone a ass at least we the players will know where we stand.

IMO, Blizz overcompensated Ret for vanilla and TBC's treatment of the spec. In Wraith Beta, Ret was god; when 3.0 hit people, season 4 was still going and 450 res targets were getting demolished by Rets in quest blues and kara epics. At 80, they still were blowing people up and doing good on PvE charts. As patches go by, Ret is still strong. Let it go, you can't blow people up in a single HoJ with the ez-3 button rotation (I have a Ret too, and it is really like that).

Ret, is fine. It can be kited when had of freedom is on CD, and you have 2 lives in arena (3 in BGs). You have good buffs and synergy in PvE. Seriously, do all Ret paladins really want to be the best of the best in every possible category? If so, then that is a real pipe dream. You are a DPS spec in a hybred class. You have infinite resources. When was the last time you faced a Ret and they went totally oom for more than a few seconds? You hit hard enough as is. Seriously, Ret is beyond ok.

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Q u o t e:
I really wish that you (blizz employees) would stop posting in players forums on level 1 through 10 alts. I mean at least have the balls to do it on your blue writers, even if you still have the urge to call someone a ass at least we the players will know where we stand.

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Lol...I guess I should be flattered? Get some objectivity.

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Q u o t e:


So you feel Blizzard has done a great job of communicating their vision for th Paladin?

So you haven't heard anyone say , "We're a tanking healing Hybrid?"

So you haven't seen any post about Holy being overrepresented in arena so spec Prot/Holy if you want to arena?

So you haven't read the Paladin Q&A? Where the Dev's acknowledged Paladins we're the "Defensive Buffing class" and "End game paladins in vanilla warcraft were pretty-much healers"

Which part were you referring too or were you just upset by what was said and wanted to lash out?

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The outrageous parts, imo, are those where you chastise GC's design for paladins 5 YEARS AGO. This game has improved leaps and bounds since then, and every class is totally well-rounded compared to back then.

Second is your statement that some people think Ret dps shouldn't be "viable". I don't know whether you're talking about people who actually think Paladins, based on their ability to respec and Tank or Heal, shouldn't be allowed to do competitive dps (outrageous), or whether you're saying that people think that a theoretical 5% hybrid tax makes rets "non-viable" (equally outrageous).

What exactly are you looking for?

GC has said many times that ideally they'd be able to have every class/spec combination viable for PvE and PvP - but there's no magic wand that you can just wave and make it so. And their philosophy and vision, as stated is "Bring the player not the class" - meaning every class/spec should be viable and useful in the right gear and the right hands. That doesn't mean it's perfectly implemented across the board, and it may not ever be perfectly implemented, but that is the "vision" they are going for with paladins and all other classes.

Class balance is complicated, and is often done by a series of incremental changes. In many cases they have to be careful in order to make sure changes don't suddenly make a class OP or UP, or that PvE changes mess up PvP (or vice versa).

When they make small tweaks people complain it's not enough and that Blizzard doesn't understand the class. When they make major changes, people complain that Blizzard is making too many changes and doesn't understand the class.

I'm baffled about why people are confused about the "vision" for paladins. It's pretty straightforward:
Prot - tank
Ret - DPS
Holy - Heal

As mentioned above, the ideal goal they're shooting for is that Prot tanks will be competitive with all the other tanks, Holy will be competitive with all the other healers, and Ret competitive with all the other DPS. Maybe they're not quite there yet. But it's not like there's a "paladin good/bad" switch that can just magically be flipped on and off.

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Q u o t e:


We're talking about the communication of vision. Has that improved as much as class balance?

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I suppose not entirely - but it has improved nonetheless.

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Q u o t e:

It has been stated many times on these forums that Ret shouldn't be viable for arena because we can arena as Holy. Are they right? If so, say it so we know to go Prot/Holy or leave arena altogether.Not you, but GC. The only thing we do know is that Prot\Holy should not be a dominant spec.

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Oh, arena - well they certainly aren't going to phase Ret out entirely - that would go against their vision. Ret is weak right now, that's a fact - and the Ret community is up in arms about even more nerfs proposed for 3.3 (I say proposed, because they're still just PTR changes, not live - people often forget that). But in any case, anybody who says that Paladins shouldn't have a viable Ret spec/playstyle - for any reason - in Arena is also talking out their ass.

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Q u o t e:
IMO, Blizz overcompensated Ret for vanilla and TBC's treatment of the spec. In Wraith Beta, Ret was god; when 3.0 hit people, season 4 was still going and 450 res targets were getting demolished by Rets in quest blues and kara epics. At 80, they still were blowing people up and doing good on PvE charts. As patches go by, Ret is still strong. Let it go, you can't blow people up in a single HoJ with the ez-3 button rotation (I have a Ret too, and it is really like that).

Ret, is fine. It can be kited when had of freedom is on CD, and you have 2 lives in arena (3 in BGs). You have good buffs and synergy in PvE. Seriously, do all Ret paladins really want to be the best of the best in every possible category? If so, then that is a real pipe dream. You are a DPS spec in a hybred class. You have infinite resources. When was the last time you faced a Ret and they went totally oom for more than a few seconds? You hit hard enough as is. Seriously, Ret is beyond ok.

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There still kicking all my toons buts, that bubble is still most time consuming move of any class and it has it's advantages.

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Q u o t e:

Again just a simple Ret's is for PvE and BG, Prot is for PvE, Holy is for PvE and arena will do. Again this is in response to the post where GC states we don't share the same vision as Blizzard.

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You're losing credibility the more you imply what you say "some people in the Ret community" *cough* believe. I beginning to doubt you even have the same definition of the word vision as Blizzard does.

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Q u o t e:


That's a great across the board view...but what about arena? BG's? Do they only want us healing in arena and if so as Holy (that's there the Prot/Holy nerfs would lead us to believe). Do they feel Ret threatens to derail the soon to be released rated BGs? Are the Ret arena numbers intended to make room for other classes to have good representation?

Again just a simple Ret's is for PvE and BG, Prot is for PvE, Holy is for PvE and arena will do. Again this is in response to the post where GC states we don't share the same vision as Blizzard.

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Fair enough - but I do think that ideally they'd like all specs to be viable in all aspects of the game. He has stated many times they don't want to pigeon hole certain specs for certain things. But it can't change overnight, and they do have to balance priorities. If a class currently has only 1 or 2 specs that are viable for arenas, then fixiing that 3rd spec may be a lower priority than adresssing a class that has no viable arena specs.

And simply put, it's not possible for GC (or anyone from Blizzard) to address every single question or request for comment.

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Q u o t e:


While I agree Ret should be viable in arena, I can't be certain Blizzard does. Since Ret representation has dipped, what steps have been taken to correct it? I just don't want the "beating the head against the wall" from vanilla to occur again. If we're meant to heal in arena, tell us so. If something is in the works to raise Ret arena representation, tell us so. Just like they plainly told us Prot/Holy is not meant to be the dominant healing spec for arena. This thread is about communication...no more...no less.

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Stop pretending that there's a possibility that Blizzard actually doens't want Rets in Arena. Have a little faith that they're trying to balance it, and adapt your own gameplay. Patronising the community is not helpful.