World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!!

Gunny

< Bloodhorde >

Earthen Ring

80. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 04:33:08 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Its not possible to make every single person play nice. Hence why bans are necessary off times. I was meerly saying (and trying to shine a bit of a light on) '...a little kindness and calmness goes a good long way...'. Think before you post. This isnt a complaint department folks , its a suggestion box. If you put in a "OMFG YOU SUXXORZ FIX MEH" youre going to get ignored. Dont get angry when you do. Simply stop. Take a breath and rewrite it. "While in X situation, Y had occurred and made my Z experience worse than I had anticipated."

For instance , my own: "While in a battleground I felt as though I as an elemental shaman had too few short duration cooldowns available to me offensively. While the defensive ones greatly increased my durability, I found myself lacking a sufficient amount of additional cooldowns to use beyond elemental mastery's "Instant" cast capability. An additional , offensive , short-duration cooldown would be appreciated though im not sure exactly as to what it could be."

No swearing. No flaming. No excessive griping in the formof a whine. Just to the point and respectful.

Trust me. They may not comment on how nice you sound. But they do notice when they look.

Your approach doesn't really work any better, it just avoids bans and post locks. The problem is lack of feedback on specific issues on a frequest basis. When you look through a role form and there are issues that are brought up consistently and they aren't addressed it breeds frustration. They can say this is for player discussion amongst players all they want, but nobody really approaches the forums that way. If you just want to talk to players you can do it in game. If you want to read theorycrafting you're better off over at EJ forums. This is a place to come and air your thoughts and hope a dev reads them.

Karazee

< Paradox >

Nordrassil

81. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 04:41:29 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

In my experience players don't believe numbers unless they support their preconceived notions. This applies to numbers coming from us or other players. In the rare instance I have attempted to supply numbers, players have wanted to attack those numbers, presumably under the assumption that if they can prove the numbers invalid that they can get us to make a change or prevent us from making a change. It's like a court of law where the prosecution is questioning the handling of evidence. It's an understandable response, but really not what these forums are about. We'd rather you comment on how the food tastes, not challenge whether or not we followed the recipe correctly.

From reading these forums for a year, I get the feeling it's kind of both. Sometimes players are honestly just saying "This tastes horrible, what the heck did you put in there?" I haven't seen many people questioning the process when the outcome is acceptable (to them). It's only when the outcome isn't something they like do they question the process (as least most of the time). I think it's safe to assume in most cases that the players who are posting about you guys and gals not following the recipe have already decided that they didn't like the taste.

Just the feeling I've gotten.

[ Post edited by Karazee ]

Malefaction

< Recoil >

Malfurion

82. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 04:45:58 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Your approach doesn't really work any better, it just avoids bans and post locks. The problem is lack of feedback on specific issues on a frequest basis. When you look through a role form and there are issues that are brought up consistently and they aren't addressed it breeds frustration. They can say this is for player discussion amongst players all they want, but nobody really approaches the forums that way. If you just want to talk to players you can do it in game. If you want to read theorycrafting you're better off over at EJ forums. This is a place to come and air your thoughts and hope a dev reads them.

While I do agree with some statements you made, I do disagree with a couple as well.

These forums are , yes , a place to get your thoughts into the open. Its a place to suggest your idea to improve your gaming experience. There are many many great idea's brought up in these forums. But at the same time , many many more less than great ideas. Or flame wars. Or mindless banterings. Or venom loaded complaints. Or direct assaults at the devs themselves. Hundreds of thousands of posts to be read by dozens+ people.

You cant post with the expectation that you will receive a response in X days. You cant post and expect to be replied to. Somethings may have been just taken into consideration. The one great idea you posted could have been the epiphany that GC was looking for and he ran it straight to the cutting room floor or local dev thinktank. They are not perfect , they are human. They try to be as active on the forums as they can.

Is it too much to express patience?

34- Malefactress (Shaman, Ele)
39- Benefactress (Paladin, Retribution)
74- Costra (Rogue, Mut)

Erosis

< Ferocious Intent >

Blackwater Raiders

83. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 05:04:19 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

/ cast Tranq shot!

Seriously, forum posters don't make me angry. At most you are seeing sarcastic, eye-rolling or world-weary responses. Most of the time I am just responding quickly because any demonstration that we read the forums at all seem to go a long a way and I don't always have the time to author a well-crafted novella.

I have no problem having an open debate on design with the community. I enjoy it. Where the problem comes is that I am one guy, and I just don't have the bandwidth for an open discussion on every single class issue nor even the important issues that you might feel are "borderline breaking classes." I try to jump in and touch on *some* issues because that's the best I can do, but players sometimes try to interpret that as a stacked rank of what we feel are the most important issues.

It's like weeding a garden. You can rarely ever get every weed out, especially if you only have an hour. You can try and triage the weeds and pull out the worst ones first, but the triage process itself takes time and you end up making a lot of judgment calls trying to compare apples and oranges. Really you can accomplish something if you just pay a little bit of attention to it every day. That's what I try to do.

And I'm not calling you guys weeds. :) WoW is a complicated ecosystem not unlike a garden and it certainly has some problems that need to be plucked out at the roots. Sadly, the list of things we think we can improve in WoW is long and I promise you that we are harsher on our designs than are most of you.

And I totally agree that many players have trouble distinguishing between feedback and demands.

Hey GC,

Are you planning on having baby Ghostcrawlers soon who can cater to the every whim of the forum posters and aid you in responding to every topic?

Khrull beat me in a duel and all I got was this stupid signature.

Huntressluna

< Daes Daemar >

Echo Isles

84. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 05:05:04 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

/ cast Tranq shot!

Someone has been huntering... nice to see you get some skillz... everso slight bump up on the rep meter... keep it up.

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

85. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 05:38:46 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Saying, "We feel things are close enough" doesn't come close to addressing tanking concerns, dps discrepancies, or any other balance issue. Particularly when the players that frequent the forums are having anecdotal experiences that fly in the face of what you're saying. Hell, you can often find player provided data here that goes against the 'vision' you guys have. At least as that vision is perceived by the players.... "we based our recent changes off that fact that tanks/dps were within __% of each other according at a variety of gear levels based on our testing." I know that would at least put things in a perspective. As it is now it's anybody's guess why things are the way they are most of the time.

The response would be, very quickly:

In what gear? Because our percentage difference is different.
Yes, but, you didn't include X and Y. If you had considered those, it would have been different.
You must have made a math mistake. Show us your math.
Why do you think __% is fair, when our class also has all these other problems?
And so it goes.
The response is not going to be "Oh. Okay."

Nothing is wrong with asking those questions. I would probably ask them myself of another player. But that isn't what we're here to do. It gets into those "Prove to us you can cook" issues when the reason we post is to ask "Do you like the food?" Maybe that distinction is too subtle, but I'm not sure how else to explain it. We need to be able to make the changes we think are right for the game in order for the game to be good. We do not think having to get community buy-off on every change is a reasonable way to do that, and all of these "prove the change is necessary" issues are essentially your demanding that we justify all changes with you. Essentially we have to ask permission to make the change. It's not going to work well like that.

Saying "We think things are close enough" DOES address your concerns. It just doesn't provide the specific change (typically a buff to your class or a nerf to the other guy) that you're looking for.

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Nocht

< Reforged >

Runetotem

86. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 05:40:56 PM PDT

Still hard to tell the chef how his cooking is when every person tells you to stfu if you dont like it.

My power is everything; defeat is absurd!

Malefaction

< Recoil >

Malfurion

87. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 05:53:01 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Still hard to tell the chef how his cooking is when every person tells you to stfu if you dont like it.

Not often does the cook himself show his face in a restaurant. At least not to every single customer that arrives. The only person that should matter in an opinion is you and your "waiter". The other customers in their respected booths telling you to "stfu" are irrelivant in your opinion of the food. Ignore them , put forth your contructive opinion and wait patiently for your response.

34- Malefactress (Shaman, Ele)
39- Benefactress (Paladin, Retribution)
74- Costra (Rogue, Mut)

Nocht

< Reforged >

Runetotem

88. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 05:57:48 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Not often does the cook himself show his face in a restaurant. At least not to every single customer that arrives. The only person that should matter in an opinion is you and your "waiter". The other customers in their respected booths telling you to "stfu" are irrelivant in your opinion of the food. Ignore them , put forth your contructive opinion and wait patiently for your response.

Except in this case it is different because the ones telling you to stfu are making sure that your idea is never taken seriously by the staff of the establishment.

I know how these forums work, its encouraged to "be nice and constructive", if a thread degrades into just a bunch of people telling the OP they are doing nothing but "QQ" the thread will be disregarded.

Always.

My power is everything; defeat is absurd!

Malefaction

< Recoil >

Malfurion

89. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 06:08:00 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Except in this case it is different because the ones telling you to stfu are making sure that your idea is never taken seriously by the staff of the establishment.

I know how these forums work, its encouraged to "be nice and constructive", if a thread degrades into just a bunch of people telling the OP they are doing nothing but "QQ" the thread will be disregarded.

Always.

So who is your lack of faith placed in? Your idea being able to hold enough water to be picked out by devs? Or the devs for being able to pick it out of the piles upon piles of "QQ" in threads. Too many people think they have to bark loudest to be heard.

A dev doesnt have to acknowledge you for your idea to be taken into consideration. You dont expect your boss to tell you day in and day out about your progress do you? Shouldnt expect your dev to stay keen to your idea everytime ya post someting. Even if it is a wonderfully thought out and respectful issue.

34- Malefactress (Shaman, Ele)
39- Benefactress (Paladin, Retribution)
74- Costra (Rogue, Mut)

Nocht

< Reforged >

Runetotem

90. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 06:15:05 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

So who is your lack of faith placed in? Your idea being able to hold enough water to be picked out by devs? Or the devs for being able to pick it out of the piles upon piles of "QQ" in threads. Too many people think they have to bark loudest to be heard.

A dev doesnt have to acknowledge you for your idea to be taken into consideration. You dont expect your boss to tell you day in and day out about your progress do you? Shouldnt expect your dev to stay keen to your idea everytime ya post someting. Even if it is a wonderfully thought out and respectful issue.

You have said the same thing every time you post.

You win, omfg GC is the all knowing lord of every mmo in the world gratz I give up trying to communicate with you argumentive clowns.

Keep telling everybody to stfu because they disagree with whats happening to their gaming experience.

Please everybody just keep being **!#s and pricks to everyone and for the love of god PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep this forum full of trash.

Edit : for incoming flames, GOD I LOVE BLIZZARD AND ALL THEIR FANS

[ Post edited by Nocht ]

My power is everything; defeat is absurd!

Blinke

Rexxar

91. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 06:15:08 PM PDT

stfu about chefs and restaurants...

i'm hungey :[

[Not Tracked]

Malefaction

< Recoil >

Malfurion

92. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 06:17:50 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
stfu about chefs and restaurants...

i'm hungey :[

Sadly so am I... I think ill make a sammich. I wonder if GC wants one too... He talked about food quite a bit as well.

34- Malefactress (Shaman, Ele)
39- Benefactress (Paladin, Retribution)
74- Costra (Rogue, Mut)

Malefaction

< Recoil >

Malfurion

93. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 06:22:45 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

You have said the same thing every time you post.

You win, omfg GC is the all knowing lord of every mmo in the world gratz I give up trying to communicate with you argumentive clowns.

Keep telling everybody to stfu because they disagree with whats happening to their gaming experience.

Please everybody just keep being **!#s and pricks to everyone and for the love of god PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep this forum full of trash.

Edit : for incoming flames, GOD I LOVE BLIZZARD AND ALL THEIR FANS

Sorry if I seem arguementative. I just dont think that flaming/fighting/abusing/crying/screaming etc etc will solve anything. I try to take a passive approach if I can now.

Thank you for keeping your counterposts to mine subtle and respectful though! I do appreicate it!

34- Malefactress (Shaman, Ele)
39- Benefactress (Paladin, Retribution)
74- Costra (Rogue, Mut)

Nickers

Gul'dan

94. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 06:26:08 PM PDT

You're full of the analogies today.

http://i35.tinypic.com/takids.jpg

Malicecooper

< League Of Dictators >

Thunderlord

95. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 06:29:32 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Thank you for keeping your counterposts to mine subtle and respectful though! I do appreicate it!

What's odd is that people seem to think that disagreeing with someone entitles them to be belligerent and disrespectful.

Game over yaaaaaa!

Outrun

< CobraKai >

Whisperwind

96. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 06:31:05 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

What's odd is that people seem to think that disagreeing with someone entitles them to be belligerent and disrespectful.

YOU"RE STUPID BECUASE YOU DONT THINK LIEK ME!

Malefaction

< Recoil >

Malfurion

97. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 06:32:52 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

What's odd is that people seem to think that disagreeing with someone entitles them to be belligerent and disrespectful.

Exactly! /cheer!

If more people start treating others in the forum with kindness and respect , then you will have less chances for Devs like GC and others to pass over it with a "Just a QQ thread" attitude. Now a nice mix of good attitude and good ideas = possible changes or acceptances of said good ideas!

I may seem overly optimistic about all of this , but at least I feel like I wont be passed over for any bad reasons.

34- Malefactress (Shaman, Ele)
39- Benefactress (Paladin, Retribution)
74- Costra (Rogue, Mut)

Malefaction

< Recoil >

Malfurion

99. Re: ANGRY Ghostcrawler !!! 10/28/2009 06:35:19 PM PDT

Q u o t e:

Yup thanks for the flaming.

Blizz cant balance a game but they can make a haven for "AHAHAHAHAHAHA LOOK WHAT YOU SAID AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH OMG FLAME HIM"

outb4 more flames

*sigh* And they were doing so well too. = /

34- Malefactress (Shaman, Ele)
39- Benefactress (Paladin, Retribution)
74- Costra (Rogue, Mut)

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