Like I said, make forbearance apply only if you cast it on yourself, that's literally all they need to do.

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Q u o t e:
This loh change is ridiculous. My H 10 group runs 2 prot paladins healed by a resto shaman and me(holy paladin) loh is basically my group's ONLY reactive healer controlled tank cooldown. We have nothing else. As if it isnt bad enough that we don't have a ridiculous contrived mana buff( replenishment) in our H 10man group, now i cant save a dying tank?

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You built a *%%!ty raid group. Grats. Either you built a raid with 6 DPS and none of them are warlocks/pallies/hunters/priests, or you have warlocks or hunters but they refuse to drop 2% maximum DPS to pick up the buff.

Next week, are you going to come to us when you make a raid without any tanks whining that you can't get bosses down? Or that your pally tanks need buffing because they didn't pick up the AD talent?

It sucks you can't walk in with any 10 random players and blow down the boss. Get over it.

As I have stated many times if their gonna make forbearance on the tank/person who gets LoH cast on them then they should make forbearance effect Warr and Druid tanking damage mitagation abilities. Effecting just one type of tank isn't balanced at all. I get LoH on me = no bubble wall, a warr or druid tank gets it cast on them they are are like screw it, pops shield wall and what ever other abilities they have i don't know i dont play a warr. But at this point i dont really care anymore. Blizzard isn't gonna listen to us over the QQ'ers. GC is an idiot like always with he bias and sometime downright disrespect towards us. This isn't the first time that pallies haven't been heard, remember back to original WoW beta to BC? No one at blizzard cared then and they don't now!


Everyone has always taken precidence ( sp) over us so why should any thing change now. So now i get a Holy pally that sees my health low and LoH's me so now i can't DP but OMFG we have AD ohh boy it recovers enough health to get one shotted by most bosses anyway. How about another tanking CD i just dont really care about LoH anymore. How about maybe something that won't cause forbearance, i mean really you might as well put forbearance on everything we cast --- ohh wait thats what you working on now. Sorry for the frustration guy i have leveled this guy through vanilla, i was a heal-bot then because that all we could even attempt to do and finally BC was released and other aspects became viable. Once they became a viable part of gameplay out came all the QQ'ers. Its just sickens me that a character i worked on for so long just keeps getting #%@@ on! Again sry for the ranting i was just venting is all.

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Q u o t e:
remove the 50% bubble from baseline, make it a prot talent, and not cause or be affected by forbearance

or give lay on hands forbearance2, which is only exclusive with other lay on hands

or just remove forbearance from 50% bubble and have rets and holy's be slightly harder to kill in pvp (but i don't care about pvp at all)

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Ignoring the effects on pvp because you don't care is a bit pointless to this thread, since this change was made exclusively because of pvp. People in this thread trying to suggest that the live LoH is in some way overpowered in PvE have completely failed to present a reasonable argument for why that is the case. As a heal it is functionally equivalent to NS, talented it has a pretty nice mitigation effect on tanks which coupled with the mana restore justifies the far longer cooldown.

The post about how LoH adding forbearance to paladin tanks is in any way comparable to PW:S and Weakened Soul was pretty funny.

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Q u o t e:

The implications are much more than you're assuming - you can't use the Improved Lay on Hands talent on a paladin tank, since you'd be preventing an actual cooldown from being used. Often times, you probably couldn't even use LoH on a paladin tank if you wanted to - if you're on the run towards your Anub add tank who's down really low, you may try to save him with LoH only to watch the spell fail to fire because the target isn't eligible. You can still sort of LoH a paladin tank, as long as you have Beacon on him and the presence of mind to LoH someone else who doesn't matter, but then you're introducing Beacon lag to a spell that's already a clutch, time-critical last resort. You can't use Lay on Hands on any of your Gormok tanks if your strategy relies on BoPing off Impale stacks, because it would prevent their removal. You'll have to enable another buff to track on your raid frames so you'll know whether or not you'll actually be capable of LoHing a DPS or healer - if they were BoPed recently, no luck! If your guild's strat for a fight requires a Bubblesac at some point, you can't use LoH on yourself without graying out your cooldown at any point in the fight within two minutes on either side of your cue.

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This is how I feel, penalizing us for using an ability that is meant to be a Last Resort. It's on a 20 min CD, I just don't see where it is such a big deal and how it throws off gameplay at all for it to take such a change.

I don't mind the Forbearance. The main problem I have with the change is that it's now strictly better to use LoH (especially Improved LoH) on a Druid, Warrior or Death Knight tank than a Paladin one.

It's simply not fair in that regard. I don't believe there's any other healer ability that works better for some tanks than others. (This was the reason PW:S was changed for Warriors, right?)

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Q u o t e:
Like I said, make forbearance apply only if you cast it on yourself, that's literally all they need to do.

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This is the correct solution.

Edit: First! And good!

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Q u o t e:
We think what we're likely to do is make LoH not trigger Forbearance if cast on other players. That is closer to our original intent of encouraging paladins to use it to heal someone besides themselves.

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/shrug. I really don't understand why people were so upset at non-self-LoH to begin with. This seems like a reasonable comprimise, although it's also a bit awkward. Or rather, self-casting LoH seems oddly punitive now.

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Q u o t e:
We think what we're likely to do is make LoH not trigger Forbearance if cast on other players. That is closer to our original intent of encouraging paladins to use it to heal someone besides themselves.

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That's a lot more reasonable, imo. Having a last resort spell place a rather significant debuff, that conflicts with other abilities, on the target just doesn't seem to be the right way to go with it.

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Q u o t e:
We think what we're likely to do is make LoH not trigger Forbearance if cast on other players. That is closer to our original intent of encouraging paladins to use it to heal someone besides themselves.

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*This* I actually really like.

Please. Do this.

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Q u o t e:
We think what we're likely to do is make LoH not trigger Forbearance if cast on other players. That is closer to our original intent of encouraging paladins to use it to heal someone besides themselves.

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I have no complaints with that.

/signed

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Q u o t e:
We think what we're likely to do is make LoH not trigger Forbearance if cast on other players. That is closer to our original intent of encouraging paladins to use it to heal someone besides themselves.

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Aren't you afraid removing a situational button like this from a prot paladin in pve will also be problematic?

Edit:

Noted your response -> http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=20677235952&pageNo=2&sid=1#23

Will continue there.

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Q u o t e:
We think what we're likely to do is make LoH not trigger Forbearance if cast on other players. That is closer to our original intent of encouraging paladins to use it to heal someone besides themselves.

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hurray!

This goes a long way toward making this nerf acceptable.

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Q u o t e:
We think what we're likely to do is make LoH not trigger Forbearance if cast on other players. That is closer to our original intent of encouraging paladins to use it to heal someone besides themselves.

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Then why does it restore mana to the target instead of to the paladin?

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Q u o t e:

Then why does it restore mana to the target instead of to the paladin?

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That way, we don't have to wait for rogues to drink between pulls.

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Q u o t e:

Then why does it restore mana to the target instead of to the paladin?

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Glyph of Divinity

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Q u o t e:
We think what we're likely to do is make LoH not trigger Forbearance if cast on other players. That is closer to our original intent of encouraging paladins to use it to heal someone besides themselves.

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This does go a long way to fixing a potentially problematic issue between Holy and Prot. It now makes LoH for Protection Paladins mostly useless (it still can have it's uses, but very very rarely now)......and they have to be very very careful when to use it on boss fights.

I hate to lose the ability to LoH to avoid a wipe if say, healers are out of range, stunned, etc.....but if this is the way balance is going, then it's a good enough "band-aid" until cataclysm.

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Q u o t e:
We think what we're likely to do is make LoH not trigger Forbearance if cast on other players. That is closer to our original intent of encouraging paladins to use it to heal someone besides themselves.

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As a healer, it seems like this change would make me hesitant to use my LoH on the tank because he may be under forbearance from already casting it on himself, so this solution addresses part of the problem very well, but still leaves part of the problem in place.

Specifically, as a healer if I see the tank in trouble and only have time to hit one emergency button [for the purposes of politeness, I'll use this term instead of the more common one :-)], I'm more apt to go for my insta-cast than LoH, because if he's already used LoH on himself, it will be wasted seconds and very possibly a wipe.

This is a sticky problem.

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Q u o t e:
We think what we're likely to do is make LoH not trigger Forbearance if cast on other players. That is closer to our original intent of encouraging paladins to use it to heal someone besides themselves.

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Much better, thank you.