Devs, we have no way of knowing that forbearance is on the tank we may be tossing LOH on, so in effect we could be wasting a GCD and the tank is dead because we did not know, could of use a HL+HS+FOL series to pray we saved them whatever.

And any kind of interlock that prevents the spell going on cooldown is not enough. Heroic TOgC where using every cooldown in the book on Phase 1, and this eliminates the one emergency button we had.

Also the FOL+SS heal, really what does it do? I think it's 1% of my heals, and I try to keep it going as much as possible all the time. Now it's just too complicated and it's more of a "Oh that's nice it procced" kind of spell.

Give pallys a stacking heal for god sakes for once. Something we know can contribute to keeping the tanks alive while saving the HS for critical save heals on DPS and healers. Might even contribute to someone else topping the overhealing charts.

See the light!

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Q u o t e:
we have no way of knowing that forbearance is on the tank

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It's called a debuff, enable it to show on your raid frame

/thread

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Q u o t e:
Devs, we have no way of knowing that forbearance is on the tank we may be tossing LOH on, so in effect we could be wasting a GCD and the tank is dead because we did not know, could of use a HL+HS+FOL series to pray we saved them whatever.

And any kind of interlock that prevents the spell going on cooldown is not enough. Heroic TOgC where using every cooldown in the book on Phase 1, and this eliminates the one emergency button we had.

Also the FOL+SS heal, really what does it do? I think it's 1% of my heals, and I try to keep it going as much as possible all the time. Now it's just too complicated and it's more of a "Oh that's nice it procced" kind of spell.

Give pallys a stacking heal for god sakes for once. Something we know can contribute to keeping the tanks alive while saving the HS for critical save heals on DPS and healers. Might even contribute to someone else topping the overhealing charts.

See the light!

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Have no way of knowing? Do you raid with ZERO addons? Can you not see debuffs on your target?

Hell, because of this change, I'm sure someone will make a Forbearance tracker just like they have for Beacon / Sacred Shield / and FoL HoT's.

Even now you can use Quartz that tracks buffs and debuffs on your target... Grid Raid Debuffs can show it on Grid as well.

This loh change is ridiculous. My H 10 group runs 2 prot paladins healed by a resto shaman and me(holy paladin) loh is basically my group's ONLY reactive healer controlled tank cooldown. We have nothing else. As if it isnt bad enough that we don't have a ridiculous contrived mana buff( replenishment) in our H 10man group, now i cant save a dying tank?

You have other heals then loh. I really don't think tanks are going to be dropping dead everywhere because paladins are too afraid to cast loh on them.

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Q u o t e:
You have other heals then loh. I really don't think tanks are going to be dropping dead everywhere because paladins are too afraid to cast loh on them.

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The implications are much more than you're assuming - you can't use the Improved Lay on Hands talent on a paladin tank, since you'd be preventing an actual cooldown from being used. Often times, you probably couldn't even use LoH on a paladin tank if you wanted to - if you're on the run towards your Anub add tank who's down really low, you may try to save him with LoH only to watch the spell fail to fire because the target isn't eligible. You can still sort of LoH a paladin tank, as long as you have Beacon on him and the presence of mind to LoH someone else who doesn't matter, but then you're introducing Beacon lag to a spell that's already a clutch, time-critical last resort. You can't use Lay on Hands on any of your Gormok tanks if your strategy relies on BoPing off Impale stacks, because it would prevent their removal. You'll have to enable another buff to track on your raid frames so you'll know whether or not you'll actually be capable of LoHing a DPS or healer - if they were BoPed recently, no luck! If your guild's strat for a fight requires a Bubblesac at some point, you can't use LoH on yourself without graying out your cooldown at any point in the fight within two minutes on either side of your cue.

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Q u o t e:
You have other heals then loh. I really don't think tanks are going to be dropping dead everywhere because paladins are too afraid to cast loh on them.

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No, they may not. But if you don't see the problem with using a healer's spell as it is intended essentially putting a tank's (and only one type of tank) shield wall ability on cooldown, then there's no hope here.

The biggest problem with LoH and tank pallys are bringing up is that it locks up a tanks mitigation b/c we would be giving them forbearance as a healer.

But Holy Paladins are overlooking the fact that the LoH heal transfers over with beacon, if your beacon'ed target is a prot pally, hit LoH on someone else.

Of course this make imp LoH useless when healing prot pallys, but its only one tank out of four so it shouldn't be THAT big of a deal.

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Q u o t e:
The biggest problem with LoH and tank pallys are bringing up is that it locks up a tanks mitigation b/c we would be giving them forbearance as a healer.

But Holy Paladins are overlooking the fact that the LoH heal transfers over with beacon, if your beacon'ed target is a prot pally, hit LoH on someone else.

Of course this make imp LoH useless when healing prot pallys, but its only one tank out of four so it shouldn't be THAT big of a deal.

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Even if your tank isn't a paladin, it's a big deal when you use BoP in your encounter strategy, and it's a big deal if you're trying to save a DPS/healer's life. For a spell with such an obscene cooldown in relation to the NS+HT/NS+HW combos it just doesn't make any sense to hamper it even further in PVE.

I still think Divine Favor + Holy Shock + Insto-FoL will suffice in most situations and is on a significantly shorter cooldown than LoH.

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Q u o t e:
I still think Divine Favor + Holy Shock + Insto-FoL will suffice in most situations and is on a significantly shorter cooldown than LoH.

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Good point. It might get us using 2 @!@#ty talents more often.

What everyone seems hung up on is LOH as a massive healbomb and being transfered via beacon.

Yes, that is possible. But you have raids where it is used as a MITIGATION TOOL! Not just for a massive healbomb. Read the Tooltip. Imp LOH Provides 15 seconds of 20% damage reduction. The fact they are putting a paladin tank's bubble wall, on the same cooldown lockout as a Holy Paladin's damage mitigation skill, is what has most paladins pissed off at the groupie jump of putting every form of damage mitigation paladins have into the same lock stock barrel cooldown bracket.

Just have LoH cause forbearance if it's cast on yourself, being able to limit the abilities a paladin tank can use through no will of their own is a terrible mechanic.

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Q u o t e:
Just have LoH cause forbearance if it's cast on yourself

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Can this be the new implementation please, it solves the original problem without causing a hundred new problems.

I don't know a lot about Pally healing, so please forgive my ignorance. So with this change LoH becomes an Oh S*** spell that might work?

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Q u o t e:
I don't know a lot about Pally healing, so please forgive my ignorance. So with this change LoH becomes an Oh S*** spell that might work?

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It'll work just fine, just not on other paladins.

If you're doing 10 mans with 2 prot pallies and 2 holy pallies you're in the minority. This will have almost no impact on balanced groups.

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Q u o t e:


It'll work just fine, just not on other paladins.

If you're doing 10 mans with 2 prot pallies and 2 holy pallies you're in the minority. This will have almost no impact on balanced groups.

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This will affect any group with at least 1 prot paladin and 1 holy paladin, hint, that's a lot!

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Q u o t e:
It'll work just fine, just not on other paladins.

If you're doing 10 mans with 2 prot pallies and 2 holy pallies you're in the minority. This will have almost no impact on balanced groups.

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So what you're saying is yes, it's an Oh S*** spell that might work. Somehow, that just sounds bad to me.

I have been following a lot of these threads, and there is some validity to complaints about forbearance and tanks. Then again, LoH is an extremely powerful "flavor" ability, and probably shouldn't even be in the game in the first place.

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Q u o t e:
I don't know a lot about Pally healing, so please forgive my ignorance. So with this change LoH becomes an Oh S*** spell that might work?

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It becomes an oh @### button that
- might work on DPS/healers (they cannot have been BoPed within the past two minutes)
- might not work on Prot pally tanks (they cannot have shield walled within the past two minutes)
- should never be cast on Prot paladin tanks (because it locks out shield wall for two minutes)
- renders the Improved Lay on Hands talent worthless if your tank is a Prot paladin (the pathetic 20% damage reduction doesn't transfer through Beacon)
- requires the introduction of Beacon lag if you want to get the LoH healing onto a Prot paladin tank, assuming the Prot paladin tank is even the tank you had Beacon on
- cannot be used in strategies that rely on BoP such as cleansing Impale stacks or tanking Anub spikes
- cannot be used on the Holy paladin himself for the mana gain in fights that require Bubble+Sacrifice tank/raid cooldowns, since you'll lock yourself out of them

LoH is already so much worse than NS+HT/HW thanks to its monstrous cooldown that this really doesn't make any PVE sense at all, but Holy has been taking collateral damage from Ret and Prot nerfs since literally the week of WotLK launch. They should just straight up make Divine Favor a Nature's Swiftness clone if they're planning on this going live, otherwise it's just completely nonsensical for an emergency heal on the longest cooldown in the game to require extra milliseconds of decision processes to decide if it will, might, or won't work.

My guild's main tank is a paladin. This sucks in a huge way, and it boggles my mind that they're wasting time balancing around 1v1 when there are so many more important things that need work, even (and especially) within the Holy tree itself.