I'll try and keep this short and brief.

1. Against a boss that can parry haste, the mitigation value of expertise (for a paladin at least) is not insignificant. In fact, for paladins, against a boss that can parry haste, expertise is likely going to be our single best mitigation stat post Icecrown Radiance and is already our best stat at reducing preventable spike damage intake. I'll let Theckhd's numbers do the talking for me on this point:
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=25611&rb_v=viewtopic

2. Not all bosses can parry haste. To quote GC from a recent thread, "Today, the increased damage that a parry-stacking tank would suffer from parry speedup is pretty trivial. Besides, we turn it off on many bosses for which it would cause a problem." Gormok is a great example of turning off parry hasting, and with good reason.

3. Barring a statement from Blizzard, discovering whether or not a boss can parry-haste is one of the hardest things the theorycrafting community can do. It pretty much requires going through each line of the combat log with a fine-tooth comb, measuring the time between swings until you see enough of a variation enough times to know it isn't just buggy log recording messing the time stamps up. If the work is done at all, it isn't until way after the release of an instance, and even then it isn't necessarily conclusive. I still don't know if Thorim can parry-haste, for example.

4. In a recent thread, when talking about the possible future of giving bosses expertise to counter tank avoidance, Ghostcrawler made overtures of giving players full disclosure of obscure boss mechanics like boss-expertise would be. Which brings me to the point of this thread. The absence or presence of the parry-haste flag on bosses seriously affects the value of expertise for that fight, and yet it is one of the most obscure and difficult to determine mechanics in the game.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I ask you, the Blizzard devs, to at least consider sharing with us which bosses can and cannot parry-haste.

I'm not trying to demand anything. I'm just trying to prepare myself for this new instance as best I can, and I would like to know whether I should approach expertise as either a serious mitigation stat with a little added threat, or as a mediocre threat stat with significantly diminished value after the soft-cap.

Thanks,
Varuk

Gormok not having the flag initially was a bug, or so it was claimed to be at least.

Also, even if that were true, what is blizzard's definition of "every boss that isn't hitting hard enough to gib you in seconds w/o parry haste will have the capacity to do so"? It's still very, very vague, and it doesn't solve any of the actual problem. We still won't know whether a boss can or can't parry-haste until someone sits down for a couple of hours combing through a log. In the spirit of full disclosure, don't we deserve a more fair response?

It would be nice to know but: A) It's not really needed and; B) It's not to likely they will tell us >_<.

Personally I feel it would just be a favor to the players to let us know, but it's not gonna make or break the game. Many tanks don't even know what parry hasting is and yet are still able to tank.

In actuality the extra damage from parry haste is possibly the lowest for paladins of all 4 tanks. I did some math on this shortly after LK went live and since the parry haste mechanic hasn't changed it should still be valid.

Winners in this area are Paladins and 2h wielding DKs (which is on top depends on exactly how fast the 2h weapon is and whether the HotR 'deflect' message causes parry haste). Druids are in the middle along with with warriors using slow 1H weapons (I wish there were more options there). Warriors with a fast tanking weapon are the worst off of the typical set ups though about equal to a DW DK with a pair of slow weapons. DKs who dual wield fast tanking weapons will see an average increase of ~0.75% damage for every 1% chance the boss has to parry you. (for comparison, paladins see ~0.3% and warriors see ~0.5)

The specific mechanics involved limit the most extreme top end possibilities (swing haste from parry caps out at 40%) but enough parriable attacks thrown per second and you'll essentially cancel out that 20% attack speed debuff you've tossed up there and then some. (next time your DW DPS stands in front of the boss, ask the healers if +40% DPS taken is ok with them)

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Q u o t e:
In actuality the extra damage from parry haste is possibly the lowest for paladins of all 4 tanks. I did some math on this shortly after LK went live and since the parry haste mechanic hasn't changed it should still be valid.

Winners in this area are Paladins and 2h wielding DKs (which is on top depends on exactly how fast the 2h weapon is and whether the HotR 'deflect' message causes parry haste). Druids are in the middle along with with warriors using slow 1H weapons (I wish there were more options there). Warriors with a fast tanking weapon are the worst off of the typical set ups though about equal to a DW DK with a pair of slow weapons. DKs who dual wield fast tanking weapons will see an average increase of ~0.75% damage for every 1% chance the boss has to parry you. (for comparison, paladins see ~0.3% and warriors see ~0.5)

The specific mechanics involved limit the most extreme top end possibilities (swing haste from parry caps out at 40%) but enough parriable attacks thrown per second and you'll essentially cancel out that 20% attack speed debuff you've tossed up there and then some. (next time your DW DPS stands in front of the boss, ask the healers if +40% DPS taken is ok with them)

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http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=25611&rb_v=viewtopic


The damage reduction from expertise is *not* insignificant. Even if paladins benefit the least from it, the benefit we get is large enough for it to mitigate more damage than any other stat after Icecrown Radiance is taken into account. Therefore, if serious bosses that are worth gearing for are able to parry haste, we should highly consider stacking expertise.

1% expertise will average out to a 0.3% reduction in damage taken due to parry haste for a paladin... if that's useful, great, go for it. The best part is that the damage reduction is a reduction in spike damage even.
I just wanted to 1, clear up that paladins and warriors are on opposite ends of the tanking spectrum with regards to expertise as a mitigation stat and 2, share some specific numbers so that people are better informed about the potential benefits.

(I myself use a fair number of ex/sta gems in an attempt to remain near that 26 mark... and it's not for the threat)

Edit:
Read some of the MT thread there, their math is a little more exacting than the math I used but mostly in agreement. I didn't bother to be so exacting due to the extremely variable nature of parry haste (you might luck out and get no haste or you could get the shaft and get 40%) so I just figured out the worst case and assumed an even spread would average out to half.
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/42209-numbers-expertise-reducing-damage.html

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Q u o t e:
Bosses shouldn't parry haste.

Ever.

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Eh, it's part of the game... been in the whole time.... besides damage being 100% predictable is boring.

From http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t78996-prot_warrior_expertise_sheet/

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Q u o t e:
Onyxias Lair
Onyxia - Parry Haste Enabled

Crusader's Coliseum
Gormok the Impaler - Parry Haste Disabled
Acidmaw - Parry Haste Enabled
Dreadscale - Parry Haste Enabled
Icehowl - Parry Haste Enabled
Lord Jaraxxus - Parry Haste Disabled
Faction Champions - Not looking for these as they're not a tanking encounter
Fjola Lightbane - Parry Haste Disabled
Eydis Darkbane - Parry Haste Disabled
Anub'Arak - Parry Haste Disabled

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That is a lot of disabled mobs. Half of those mobs definitely aren't dangerous enough to instagib tanks if they'd had the flag on, too. Jaraxxus and the Valkyrs hit like girls, and the only dangerous part of Anub'arak is his stun slash during which you obviously can't attack and induce a parry-hasted hit anyways.

Is this the future of parry-haste, blizzard? Can we expect it to be turned off on pretty much every mob ever?

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Q u o t e:
Jaraxxus and the Valkyrs hit like girls...

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To be fair, the Valkyrs ARE girls.

And while this information would be nice to know, I can't ever see it being a crucial point of gearing for any tank.

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Q u o t e:
Bosses shouldn't parry haste.

Ever.

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Because healing is already soooo exciting right?

It is something for tanks to have other than just watching their stam rise. I see no point in removing parry haste from bosses.

Ever.

Tbh, unless A LOT of raid damage is going to be going around in ICC, healing will be at an all time low when it comes to fun. It is already insanely easy and boring (aside from heroic mode). So please, more spikes so I can actually stay awake during fights ><

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Q u o t e:
Jaraxxus and the Valkyrs hit like girls, and the only dangerous part of Anub'arak is his stun slash during which you obviously can't attack and induce a parry-hasted hit anyways.

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Jaraxxus for the start of a nether buff so the tank doesn't get hit before the mage can spellsteal enough stacks.
Valkyr for the twin's pact tanking the non-bubbled one? Or even during the vortex when the non-vortex one is going and possibly healers are running for essence change?

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Q u o t e:

Tbh, unless A LOT of raid damage is going to be going around in ICC, healing will be at an all time low when it comes to fun. It is already insanely easy and boring (aside from heroic mode). So please, more spikes so I can actually stay awake during fights ><

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1) if you think that healing reg ToC is supposed to be hard, you're mistaken
2) if you think that healing is going to be easy and boring in ICC, i posit that you don't fully understand the purpose of Chill of the Throne

With chill of the throne active and bosses hitting for less than they would be usually since tanks have less avoidance, wouldn't it make sense keep parry haste on all bosses since spike damage has been reduced?

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Q u o t e:
With chill of the throne active and bosses hitting for less than they would be usually since tanks have less avoidance, wouldn't it make sense keep parry haste on all bosses since spike damage has been reduced?

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Bosses still hit very hard in ICC. Don't let CotT fool you.