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Q u o t e:
as always, i suggest removing the ilvl number on the items so that using a gearscore system is extrmely difficult for someone, almost impossible unless they want to spend countless hours personally assigning every piece of gear in the game with a score.

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This wouldn't work as the ability to determine ilevel is easy based on armor, item type, and equip location very easily.

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Q u o t e:


We'd be more likely to just put it on the stats screen as a tooltip for your hit chance for example. To get the information from particular creatures will require a little more work on our part.

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Since your still here. Anything on DK's and threat?

It's a tough call, and Sunwell Radiance felt wonky as does Chill of the Throne, but it's necessary. Lesson learned, hopefully in Cata bosses will scale better so as GC said, you avoid a Naxx boss 30% of the time as well as avoiding ICC bosses 30% of the time.

Any chance that the effects on DK threat from Rune Strike have been considered with this change?

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Q u o t e:


We'd be more likely to just put it on the stats screen as a tooltip for your hit chance for example. To get the information from particular creatures will require a little more work on our part.

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Not to be an annoyance GC, but this is yet another post in the thread without addressing DK rune strike and to a lesser degree warrior revenge with the 20% dodge nerf. If I was a DK I'd be sweating bullets right now.

To be honest most of us aren't saying this is a bad thing. We're just worried that they'll pull a Brutallis and nerf our avoidance and still leave in bosses to level us in 2 shots.

On the subject of DKs, guess you guys got your answer.

I've seen a lot of people asking about proposed changes in regards to the nerf. I think the best way to determine that is to hop onto the PTR after Arthas turns down the thermostat and give it a go. If your ST TPS plummets, report it and give them feedback.

As for the question about the 12% dodge on Pally Tier gear, wouldn't that actually be more beneficial now that the bosses will hit for less damage and dodge rating is less effective overall? I doubt the way it works is that it gives you dodge rating equivalent to a 12% gain on dodge, so wouldn't that make it immune to DR? If that's the case, trinkets with on-dodge procs for things like stamina would be more attractive to the tank who can cause it to proc more, especially if the stamina buff outlasts the bonus from DP. I've never played a Paladin past level 20 so if I'm talking out of my rear feel free to correct me.

Also, if revenge is proccing less overall, and I see my threat might need that little boost as the DPS gears up beyond me, maybe I would have more incentive to pick up my 4 piece tier 10 as opposed to floating between half 8.5/9.5 and half 9.5/off-set pieces.

And, one last thing, if bosses are hitting for less damage, this would make block (in my eyes) a lot more attractive. If I can mitigate 3k of a 15-20k swing, that's good. If I can critically mitigate 6k, that's even better. Granted, block for warriors is not all that reliable, but it would give me an incentive to wear full tier 9 to try out the first few bosses.

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Q u o t e:


It's not an oversight. The question is how many times are you prepared to use Rune Strike but can't because you haven't gotten a dodge or parry. If you are replacing most of your white swings with Rune Strikes, then you shouldn't see much of a difference.

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So you guys have considered this and determined it will not be a major nerf to DK threat...? I'll wait to test it out before I say anything definitive, but I would be massively surprised if it didn't cripple my threat as a DW tank.

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Q u o t e:


It's not an oversight. The question is how many times are you prepared to use Rune Strike but can't because you haven't gotten a dodge or parry. If you are replacing most of your white swings with Rune Strikes, then you shouldn't see much of a difference.

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I'm sorry but you can't answer a question with a question. Right now for a DK to maintain proper threat with DPS actually pushing at our feet rune strike needs to be macro'd to every attack we use to ensure it is always up. If we runestrike 30-60% less then yes this is indeed a massive threat nerf to our already troubled threat.

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Q u o t e:
We'd be more likely to just put it on the stats screen as a tooltip for your hit chance for example. To get the information from particular creatures will require a little more work on our part.

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So in other words, I target a mob, mouseover my hit rating, and it says "Increases your chance to hit by x%. You have a y% chance to hit your current target."?

Edit since I was slow and there was a response:

Seeing as you've admitted that you yourself the creator of RS don't like the design of the ability, wouldn't this seem like a good time to spread out DK threat across multiple abilities so it's not so clunky? It's already frustrating not having on demand threat, this just makes that worse by making our one threat ability available less.

Noob statement. Wouldn't Block (Value and/or Rating) help even out the damage so things wouldn't be so spikey? How I see it, DK tanks and the catering to have tanking gear that fits them has screwed tanks in WotLK.

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Q u o t e:
So in other words, I target a mob, mouseover my hit rating, and it says "Increases your chance to hit by x%. You have a y% chance to hit your current target."?

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It might also say something like "You have a Y% chance to hit a level 80 target and a Z% chance to hit a level 83 target."

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Q u o t e:


That logic doesn't really work. It's like saying instead of nerfing armor pen, we should have just put less and less on higher level gear.

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You could have simply chosen not to put so much on in the first place. You're in control of how to itemize. If you knew avoidance was going to be such an issue, then you could have left avoidance at Naxx or Ulduar levels and used the extra itemization budget from higher ilevels to add more stamina, strength, etc.

Instead you guys inflated the hell out of avoidance, and then took it all away arbitarily, which is not at all like nerfed armor pen. If you want to make a compatrison to armor pen, it isn't at all like what you did. It would be more like if you just decided one day that the first 500 points or ArP rating don'tcount, but every point after that counts the same as it did before. That's a hack, not a solution.

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Q u o t e:
If we had avoided avoidance on tank gear, then every piece of tank gear would have hit and expertise (and maybe crit, haste and armor pen).

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Would it be a bad thing if tank gear had more crit, ArP and haste? How is that NOT better than itemizing a bunch of tanking gear with Spell Penetration? Because that's what you've done, effectively. You've thrown a ton of empty stats on gear that does NOTHING, because its very presence requires you to turn around and put in a debuff to negate it.

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Q u o t e:


Stamina and armor are static amounts, and if they were not, then those pieces immediately become the only pieces players would pay attention to.

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First of all, this doesn't even make sense, because you have a wide variety of stamina values on same ilevel, same item slot, same armor type gear. Obviously stamina ISN'T fixed at all.

Second, it's not as if tanks are having a hard time choosing between DPS pieces and tanking pieces. They take the pieces that have avoidance, mitigation and stamina, so if those pieces had a little less avoidance and a little more stamina, they'd still be taking the exact same pieces, unless for some retarded reason you only changed SOME of the tanking pieces (the ones that have avoidance and higher stamina already).

Given a choice of a piece with 50 dodge and 75 strength and 100 stamina vs 0 dodge 100 strength and 90 stamina, I'll take the dodge piece. If you change it into a piece with 25 dodge 75 strength, and 120 stamina, I'm still going to take it over the piece with 0 dodge 100 strength and 90 stamina. Nothing changes in terms of my gear preference.

GC, you could fix the itemization, but instead you're taking the easy hack route instead. If you need some one to manually go through and adjust itemization, email me a job offer, because it might be extremely time consuming, but it doesn't seem that complicated.

I always thought that with each consecutive hit that the boss misses, that it should reduce the change the tank has of avoiding the next hit, until a hit occurs, then the number is reset again. At least that way damage would be more predictable by the tank; he could say "I've dodged a lot, hit incoming."

I think it's kinda strange that the newbie level 80 tank stepping into a Heroic gets hit more often than the one tanking Algalon...

Give enemy mobs/bosses expertise (by all functional measures this is exactly what Sunwell Radiance and Chilll of the Throne do) and retune at 85 so that Avoidance doesn't get built up quite as quickly.