solution

before IC
Strike the target for 150% weapon damage plus X. Only usable after the death knight dodged or parries an attack. Can't be dodged, blocked, or parried.

after IC
Strike the target for 150% weapon damage plus X. Only usable after the death knight dodged, parries an attack or the mob missed him . Can't be dodged, blocked, or parried.


they should include the missed attack form mobs

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Q u o t e:
solution

before IC
Strike the target for 150% weapon damage plus X. Only usable after the death knight dodged or parries an attack. Can't be dodged, blocked, or parried.

after IC
Strike the target for 150% weapon damage plus X. Only usable after the death knight dodged, parries an attack or the mob missed him . Can't be dodged, blocked, or parried.


they should include the missed attack form mobs

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You are losing 20% avoidance. You want to make up your lost rune strikes by factoring in 6% avoidance? Basic math says we will still take a hit.

The fact of the matter still remains, if bosses are swinging faster, it won't have as large of an effect. However, this means the hits will be smaller and block suddenly surges (just like Algalon) in value. Which means our threat is ok but we take 15% more damage since we have no block. Oh wait, no AP debuff either, add on another 15%. GG DKs.

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Q u o t e:


You are losing 20% avoidance. You want to make up your lost rune strikes by factoring in 6% avoidance? Basic math says we will still take a hit.

The fact of the matter still remains, if bosses are swinging faster, it won't have as large of an effect. However, this means the hits will be smaller and block suddenly surges (just like Algalon) in value. Which means our threat is ok but we take 15% more damage since we have no block. Oh wait, no AP debuff either, add on another 15%. GG DKs.

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There is 5%(?) base miss plus what is added by defense. So its more like 11-12%.

Why does this expansion seem to rotate around burst damage, burst healing and then burst tanking? It seems it really through off the balance. So now tanks are just going to itemize, gem, chant favoring parry and block. I dont know how high parry can get, but for DK tanks this change to dodge seems to favor them since their cooldowns are high parry chances.

pretty sure gemming parry will still be bad

I personally wouldn't mind if you scrapped all gear the dodge and parry on it, reduced the numbers of any avoidance ratings on that type of gear, and put hit, crit, expertise and armor pen on tank gear. More threat and more damage is always enjoyable.

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Q u o t e:
I personally wouldn't mind if you scrapped all gear the dodge and parry on it, reduced the numbers of any avoidance ratings on that type of gear, and put hit, crit, expertise and armor pen on tank gear. More threat and more damage is always enjoyable.

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It wouldn't break my heart if they did that, although there would still need to be something to clearly indicate that it was tank gear, because otherwise the tanks have to compete with the dps for drops.

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Q u o t e:
Imo, the ones getting the shaft is the druid. For every other tanks, it is not as bad as everyone believe.

Dodge isn't the only avoidance and even -20%, we should still have around 5%-6% dodge.

5% dodge
21-22 parry
10-12 miss

For DK, parry will be higher. So all in all, we won't see such a big change, the damage will be lower and steady.

Blade Ward is really a big must for anyone with parry now.

As I said.. poor druid.

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I'm not sure how many times we need to keep posting this, but your assertion is 100% incorrect. We all lose 20% avoidance, the only way to lose less is to have less than 20% dodge. Because avoidance gives escalating returns, this has more of an effect on tanks with higher avoidance than with low avoidance. In other words, whatever gap currently exists because of the avoidance disparity, is actually lessened with this change. It's a relative tanking buff for druids.

Also, lowering your avoidance does not make damage steady, it makes it much more spiky. Spikes are caused by consecutive hits landing, higher avoidance drastically lowers the frequency of that occurring. The only way higher avoidance can cause things to get spiky, is if you are trading tons of health and armor for it, so that each hit is for a larger portion of your health pool. In this case, our health and armor are not increasing, we are simply losing avoidance, so spike events will be much more common. For a tank with 65% avoidance, they'll see in increase of 3 hit chains by about 425% under Icecrown Radiance, a tank with 45% avoidance will see an increase by about 250%.

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Q u o t e:
I personally wouldn't mind if you scrapped all gear the dodge and parry on it, reduced the numbers of any avoidance ratings on that type of gear, and put hit, crit, expertise and armor pen on tank gear. More threat and more damage is always enjoyable.

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In cataclysm they are doing something similar. They are removing defense, and allowing you to be uncrittable via talents (like druids now). That alone takes a pretty big chunk of avoidance away, since defense increases dodge, miss, and parry.

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Q u o t e:


I will sit here with a straight face and say we like to balance around numbers, not hand-waving. :)

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And I will also point out that, as much as Rune Strike may be "needed" for DK threat, dollars to doughnuts DKs were never intended to be absolutely reliant on Rune Strike for threat. If avoidance scaling Rune Strike has masked otherwise poor threat scaling, that can be fixed.

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Q u o t e:


I will sit here with a straight face and say we like to balance around numbers, not hand-waving. :)

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In other words, DKs need to get into IC when this buff is up, try this out and collect some data. On the flip side though, that's not really easy to do on a PTR, but hopefully someone will take up the task. We use a DK tank quite a bit, I don't want to see his threat lowered.

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Q u o t e:
I'm not sure how many times we need to keep posting this, but your assertion is 100% incorrect. We all lose 20% avoidance, the only way to lose less is to have less than 20% dodge. Because avoidance gives escalating returns, this has more of an effect on tanks with higher avoidance than with low avoidance. In other words, whatever gap currently exists because of the avoidance disparity, is actually lessened with this change. It's a relative tanking buff for druids.

Also, lowering your avoidance does not make damage steady, it makes it much more spiky. Spikes are caused by consecutive hits landing, higher avoidance drastically lowers the frequency of that occurring. The only way higher avoidance can cause things to get spiky, is if you are trading tons of health and armor for it, so that each hit is for a larger portion of your health pool. In this case, our health and armor are not increasing, we are simply losing avoidance, so spike events will be much more common. For a tank with 65% avoidance, they'll see in increase of 3 hit chains by about 425% under Icecrown Radiance, a tank with 45% avoidance will see an increase by about 250%.

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I don't agree, do you really thing Blizzard wants every group to fail?

All of the sudden the game becomes a no mans land?

They said they are lowering the damage to account for the number of hit we will get. They are balancing around 30% avoidance. Not 50% +

Spike damage occurs cause boss miss more than 50% of the time, meaning they hit for 20k on a 48k tank. 2 consecutive hit and you go down to 8k. In the IC you will maybe be hit for 12k, meaning you will be able to sustain 4 hits intead of 3.

Edit : The healer won't have to spam the biggest heals all the time "in case" the consecutive hits happen, they will have more time to react.

This is what I get from GC posts.

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Q u o t e:


Of course it was "our fault." We're not blaming anyone. I was just explaining why avoidance still got so high despite our best intentions. You may have scaled the gear down had you been in our shoes, but we picked the numbers we thought would be enticing enough to get players to try the hard modes while still allowing everyone to feel like they could upgrade their gear.

It wasn't inevitable either. We debated Chill of the Throne long and hard. We easily could have gone the other way. We think the encounters will be more fun with the current implementation though.

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Before the initial avoidance nerfs and the tweaks to DK skills, they were flirting with 70% avoidance in Naxx gear.

Why 20% though? That's a pretty big number that suggests we are way over the mark in order to get the dungeon experience you want us to have. That brings avoidance for me back to pre/early Naxx levels.

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Q u o t e:

It's an item level problem. If we added another raid tier to Lich King, we couldn't just keep avoiding avoidance and avoid it for every tier going forward. We just need a system where you avoid a Naxx boss 30% of the time and an Icecrown boss 30% of the time, the same way the Icecrown bosses have e.g. 30% larger health bars and thus take 30% more damage to kill. Otherwise the stats don't scale and bad thing happen (in this case the boss having to land so much damage to account for the fact that it misses so often).

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Wouldn't the over-simple solution to that be increase the expertise a boss has as you increase in raid-tiers? As a bonus, that'd also destroy tanks very quickly who enter the instance with lower gear then the instance demands. Similarly, tanks taking higher tier gear to lower tier raids would be very tough. Pretty much the exact effect each expansion has on tanking.

well if your already doing this, why not just go through with the new stat design for ice crown, or is it just not ready yet? Will there be anything after ice crown for wotlk ( i really hope so, would suck to only have 2 real raid instances) as well and will you roll out the new stat design then?