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Q u o t e:
I'm sorry, but I just have to ask...do you truly hate bears? I mean, all bear tanks have is FLIPPING DODGE! We have no parry or block or whatever other weird avoidance stats DKs, Warriors, and Pallys have. It's bad enough last patch nerfed our dodge, and now you're asking us to tank with about 20-30% instead of our usual 40-50%? Lame...

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i about fell out of my chair laughing at this. Why would blizzard hate their lovely, fluffy care bears now?

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Q u o t e:


The gap is decreased, by I'm looking at it in terms of the likelihood of it happening. Yes, it becomes more likely for everyone. And yes, the chance of it happening actually increases more for the other tanks (see? I can actually do math). However, what I'm saying is that the chance of it happening reaches a critical threshold for druids. It becomes quite likely to happen, as opposed to just more likely. As in, with the maybe 30% avoidance we'll now have, there's a 49% chance of getting hit twice in a row. There's a 34.3% chance of getting hit three times in a row. There's a 24.01% chance of getting hit four times in a row. So, approximately 1 out of every 4 times, we'll take 4 hits in a row.

Let's compare to a deathknight (and don't misunderstand, I know this hits DKs pretty hard for other reasons), who will likely end up with around 40% avoidance. There's a 36% chance of getting hit twice in a row. There's a 21.6% chance of getting hit three times in a row (less than our chance to get hit 4 times in a row). There's a 12.96% chance to get hit four times in a row.

This also devalues agility, as low levels of avoidance simply aren't very worthwhile. So we'll see even more stam stacking than before. Thus, we'll have less agility. Thus, we'll crit less often. Thus, savage defense will proc less often. Thus, we'll take un"blocked" hits more often.

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Ok, first off you aren't considering TTL values, which counteract how bad a worst case scenario is.

Secondly, please give me the math formula itself, or what algorithm you are using to derive the chance of getting multiple strings in a row because it looks off to me when I do it in my head quickly.

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Q u o t e:
I'm sorry, but I just have to ask...do you truly hate bears? I mean, all bear tanks have is FLIPPING DODGE! We have no parry or block or whatever other weird avoidance stats DKs, Warriors, and Pallys have. It's bad enough last patch nerfed our dodge, and now you're asking us to tank with about 20-30% instead of our usual 40-50%? Lame...

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im thinking that because its such a large amount, and that DKs only have parry and dodge also, they are gonna hit like kittens

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Q u o t e:


I don't think so. We didn't decide until last night to do the Icecrown Radiance. Without the extra tiers that the Ulduar and ToC hard modes included, then the max gear level might have been more like ToC normal 25 is today, and we didn't add Jormungar Radiance.

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Worried as I am that this nerf is going to hurt bear tanks more than anything else, I can't help but mention that it's not too late to add Jormungar Radiance... Even if it does nothing at all beyond a silly description...

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Q u o t e:


Ok, first off you aren't considering TTL values, which counteract how bad a worst case scenario is.

Secondly, please give me the math formula itself, or what algorithm you are using to derive the chance of getting multiple strings in a row because it looks off to me when I do it in my head quickly.

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I'm multiplying the chance to be hit by itself (so 1 swing would have a 70% chance to hit, 2 swings would have a .7 * .7 chance of both hitting, etc.).

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Q u o t e:


I'm talking about an Icecrown boss being tougher than an Ulduar boss, not that the Ulduar bosses look at how much gear you have and scale themselves up accordingly.

Bosses get more damage and health. If they also got more expertise, defense and maybe armor then as character item level grew their relative strength to boss stats would not increase. As it is they increase enormously, requiring the bosses to have even more health and even more damage. Shifting some of that health and damage to other stats would fix a lot of problems.

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Explain to me again why giving tanks more armor and stam wouldn't cancel out bosses hitting harder?

Threat stats cancel out necessary DPS increases which are required to meet race conditions set by increased boss health.

Again, it seems to me that the only unnecessary stats in this equation are avoidance.

If you were to, say, give every tank a static 15% chance to dodge and 15% chance to parry and then set their respective parry and dodge %'s to be a mitigation percentage (15% chance to "dodge" 60% of the hit) you can now handle large amounts of stat increases with a smooth curve of damage intake.


Thats just an example though. The point remains, armor and health should do it. Why would we want to wear the gear, you ask? Two reasons: more armor and health (gasp) and 'cuz its purdy and makes our epeens magnifique!

I wonder how this changes the viewpoint on the pally t10 set bonus.

12% dodge that is unaffected by DR means that pallies lose only 8% dodge to Icewell Radiance not including DR?

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Q u o t e:


Nerfing dodge does not make the dodge stat worse. It only makes the amount of dodge on your dude worse. Would you stop stacking stamina if we nerfed your health?

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^^ This. Too many noobs on this forum.

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Q u o t e:


Worried as I am that this nerf is going to hurt bear tanks more than anything else, I can't help but mention that it's not too late to add Jormungar Radiance... Even if it does nothing at all beyond a silly description...

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It would have to stack to two. After all, you must fight not one, but two Jormungar.

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Q u o t e:


^^ This. Too many noobs on this forum.

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It does, indeed, make dodge worse. At low levels, each point of avoidance is worth less than at high levels.

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Q u o t e:


Yeah, per my previous response we are looking at Rune Strike. We're not convinced it will be a problem yet.

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The big question as to whether it will be a problem or not is the swing speed you guys are planning to implement on these bosses. On a mob like Algalon, who dual-wields and has instant attacks, Rune Strike is constantly up. On bosses like Icehowl, Jaraxxus and Anub'Arak, their slow attack speeds preclude Rune Striking in place of every autoattack no matter how high your avoidance is. The idea that you want boss damage to be less spiky tends to lean toward faster hitting bosses with lighter hits rather than 3.0 attack speed bosses who hit for 50k a shot, which means Rune Strike procs should be less of an issue.

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Q u o t e:


I am pretty sure on day one of 3.3 going live this forum will be filled with tanks who died and respond with "I thought bosses weren't going to hit hard."

It's Icecrown. It's not going to be Naxx.

Naxx was but a setback....

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So if tanks are getting hit hard and dying...EH comes into play?

/runs hides.

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Q u o t e:


If you conclusion is that anything that improves your avoidance is now bad as a result of this change, you should think through it a little more. If you didn't like avoidance before, nothing changes. If you liked avoidance before, nothing changes. You just have less of it now. The relative value should not change, unless you get to the point where bosses no longer two-shot tanks so much, in which case the relative value of avoidance increases.



Nerfing dodge does not make the dodge stat worse. It only makes the amount of dodge on your dude worse. Would you stop stacking stamina if we nerfed your health?

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Well the relative value of avoidance isn't linear, because of it's escalating reduction in burst frequency and damage reduction. So this does make additional points of dodge slightly less valuable on top of the fact that the DR is steeper and steeper, which is a built in deflation already.

That said, you are correct that whatever gearing strategy you follow now, will still almost certainly apply. For most, that's stack EH.

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Q u o t e:


If you conclusion is that anything that improves your avoidance is now bad as a result of this change, you should think through it a little more. If you didn't like avoidance before, nothing changes. If you liked avoidance before, nothing changes. You just have less of it now. The relative value should not change, unless you get to the point where bosses no longer two-shot tanks so much, in which case the relative value of avoidance increases.



Nerfing dodge does not make the dodge stat worse. It only makes the amount of dodge on your dude worse. Would you stop stacking stamina if we nerfed your health?

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I think what they're saying is that those trinkets you quoted proc off dodges.. and now we'll be hardly dodging at all. :) So their relative value just dropped tremendously.

Now if the data-mining is incorrect or misinterpreted, that's another thing entirely. But they're right, those trinkets will be avoided like the plague if they truly do only proc off of dodges, and our dodge is at 5-10%.

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Q u o t e:

Nerfing dodge does not make the dodge stat worse. It only makes the amount of dodge on your dude worse. Would you stop stacking stamina if we nerfed your health?

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Stm doesn't have diminishing returns.
Stm has linier growth, avoidance does not.

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Q u o t e:


If you conclusion is that anything that improves your avoidance is now bad as a result of this change, you should think through it a little more. If you didn't like avoidance before, nothing changes. If you liked avoidance before, nothing changes. You just have less of it now. The relative value should not change, unless you get to the point where bosses no longer two-shot tanks so much, in which case the relative value of avoidance increases.



Nerfing dodge does not make the dodge stat worse. It only makes the amount of dodge on your dude worse. Would you stop stacking stamina if we nerfed your health?

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You are missing a huge part of the scaling of avoidance, the very reason you're nerfing it in the first place.

The more you stack avoidance, the more each additional point is worth. Even with D.R. Even now.

If, and I'm not certain this is true, but if this change doesn't lessen the D.R. for dodge, then the relative value of avoidance is going to go *way* down. Going from 70% to 70.5% avoidance is a 1.66% decrease in damage taken, while going from 50% to 50.5% avoidance is a 0.99% decrease in damage taken. The value of each point of dodge rating is essentially getting reduced to 5/8ths what it is at the moment, and if you think that that isn't going to make people skip avoidance then you're very, very wrong.

I'm not saying that I disagree with the nerf. I'm just saying that if this Icecrown Radiance doesn't lessen the impact of DR on the dodge stat that the value of all three avoidance stats is going to go way, way down, and that you should expect that.

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Q u o t e:


If you conclusion is that anything that improves your avoidance is now bad as a result of this change, you should think through it a little more. If you didn't like avoidance before, nothing changes. If you liked avoidance before, nothing changes. You just have less of it now. The relative value should not change, unless you get to the point where bosses no longer two-shot tanks so much, in which case the relative value of avoidance increases.



Nerfing dodge does not make the dodge stat worse. It only makes the amount of dodge on your dude worse. Would you stop stacking stamina if we nerfed your health?

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They aren't saying so much that dodge will be terrible now because it won't be any different relatively.

They are saying the value of that trinket decreases because it procs off dodges which are going from 30% to 10% (rough numbers) for plate tanks. Meaning that the chance to get a proc to stack for a meaning full amount of time less likely.

It is interesting to me though, that if these trinkets came instead of the ones in ToC 10, for tanks it would have been seen as much more valuable then it is now. While the inverse is true. The trinkets from 10 man ToC that stack armor on being hit got a relative buff.(Unfortunately though they hard expire after 20 seconds, which makes them bad compared to most trinkets as is.)