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Q u o t e:


It's not an oversight. The question is how many times are you prepared to use Rune Strike but can't because you haven't gotten a dodge or parry. If you are replacing most of your white swings with Rune Strikes, then you shouldn't see much of a difference.

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I am guessing we won't notice much change in how blessing of sanctuary as far as mana gained for paladins as well.

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Q u o t e:


Yeah, per my previous response we are looking at Rune Strike. We're not convinced it will be a problem yet.

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Dont forget revenge!!!!

: [

*EDIT*

What about those +% avoidance talents, I thought someone said they didn't like the talents that gave small numbers and instead wanted to make most if not all talents like Juggernaut?

Wouldn't that reduce some tank's avoidance by another 10%?

Common worries from this Thread:

1) Will DK threat be taking a big nerf to this as their threat is based off their avoidance?

2) What happens to a tank who has 19% dodge (theoretically)? -1% dodge or 0%?

3) How will the debuff affect diminishing returns to dodge. Basically will DR be taken from your base (pre-debuff) or your current dodge %? Things like the Paladin Libram, 4-piece Tier 10 that are proc based would affect this so just curious?

4) With the new Trinkets for tanks in ICC - each time you dodge an attack you gain x amount of stam - this basically makes them worthless, any chance on a change to maybe a static amount of stam + something else?

5) So with this change, bosses will not be hitting quite as hard as they currently are, even in hard modes?

6) Blessing of Sanctuary is one of the contributions to Paladins "blue-rage" bar. How big of an affect will this have on paladins seeing as they blow 50% of their mana right off the bat? Basically will this affect paladin mana and how badly?

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Q u o t e:


It's not an oversight. The question is how many times are you prepared to use Rune Strike but can't because you haven't gotten a dodge or parry. If you are replacing most of your white swings with Rune Strikes, then you shouldn't see much of a difference.

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How I cannot see much difference? If it hits for 150% weapon damage plus 569, and can't be dodged or parried?

You said early Rune strike should be a compensation for the Death Knight who missed a Plague Strike or Icy Touch, but it becomes more than 30% of our threat and dps.

If you're nerfing our avoidance, you're also nerfing our DPS and Threat.

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Q u o t e:
I'm sorry but you can't answer a question with a question. Right now for a DK to maintain proper threat with DPS actually pushing at our feet rune strike needs to be macro'd to every attack we use to ensure it is always up. If we runestrike 30-60% less then yes this is indeed a massive threat nerf to our already troubled threat.

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I don't think that's an accurate assessment. The only time I have DPS "pushing at my feet" is on Vezax - where that's supposed to happen. The amount of threat reduction that this causes is likely not to be enough to warrant a change, it'll just put us lower on those threat scoreboards.

I don't think we'll RS 30% less, I already have a ratio of around 2:1 on RS:Melee usually, this may make it more like 'just below' 2:1 usually, but it's likely not going to be cause for concern overall. Look at your logs and find out just how many times you've dodge an attack when RS was already lit - before you could attack. You might see we'll probably lose more along the lines of 10-20% RS procs.

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Q u o t e:
It's an item level problem. If we added another raid tier to Lich King, we couldn't just keep avoiding avoidance and avoid it for every tier going forward. We just need a system where you avoid a Naxx boss 30% of the time and an Icecrown boss 30% of the time, the same way the Icecrown bosses have e.g. 30% larger health bars and thus take 30% more damage to kill. Otherwise the stats don't scale and bad thing happen (in this case the boss having to land so much damage to account for the fact that it misses so often).

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This would actually be BAD. If I am in T10 gear and go back to do a T7 Boss, I expect that boss to barely touch me. I expect to dodge more, parry more, block more, etc, etc. If you did this, it would be called: "The Hogger Effect". Meaning that what killed you at level 10 would kill you at 20 or 50 or 80.

No thanks ... I want to be able to go back and wipe the floor with bosses due to gear level being higher.

Gotta love the ICC tanking trinkets.

Item - Icecrown 10 Normal Tank Trinket - Each time you dodge an attack, you gain 24 stamina for the next 10 sec, stacking up to 10 times.

Item - Icecrown 10 Heroic Tank Trinket - Each time you dodge an attack, you gain 27 stamina for the next 10 sec, stacking up to 10 times.

/endsarcasm.


Look, I understand the reasoning behind the avoidance nerf. Its the design behind some items that leave me scratching my head in confusion, from the libram, to the T10 4pc bonus for Paladins to the tanking trinket.

STAM WINS AGAIN!

In addition to concerns about Rune Strike there's also the question of Blessing of Sanctuary. I know it may not be a huge deal but it is one more piece in the puzzle.

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Q u o t e:
Gotta love the ICC tanking trinkets.

Item - Icecrown 10 Normal Tank Trinket - Each time you dodge an attack, you gain 24 stamina for the next 10 sec, stacking up to 10 times.

Item - Icecrown 10 Heroic Tank Trinket - Each time you dodge an attack, you gain 27 stamina for the next 10 sec, stacking up to 10 times.

/endsarcasm.


Look, I understand the reasoning behind the avoidance nerf. Its the design behind some items that leave me scratching my head in confusion, from the libram, to the T10 4pc bonus for Paladins to the tanking trinket.

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Yup, if these trinkets go live, I don't think any self respecing tank will touch them with a 10-foot pole. With dodge basically nerfed to the ground and then some......what are the chances of you getting 10 stacks up and keeping them up for any sustained amount of time???

Unless they took off the "For the next 10 seconds" and changed it to "While in combat", then it might be better. But yes, currently, those trinkets are horrible for the last tier of an expansion.

Well, in theory if we're getting hit more often, then even though we lost mana from BoSanc, we'll gain more mana from SA. So I probably wouldn't worry about that.

20% less dodge is a very significant adjustment to the probability of rune strike proccing per boss attack (roughly 70% to roughly 50%, a 28% lower proc rate per attack). That this could even be considered as having no effect on the Rune Strike to White Attack ratio seems absurd to me, on its face, and will have an even more dramatic effect on those DKs using faster weapons (such as dual wielding).

If it were a small reduction in the proc chance I could see it being dismissed lightly, but it's roughly a 30% lower proc rate which could easily translate into 10-20% fewer rune strikes, which is a huge chunk of threat. Unless the bosses are attacking much faster than they currently do, I can't see how this can escape correction if DK threat's to remain competitive.

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Q u o t e:
In addition to concerns about Rune Strike there's also the question of Blessing of Sanctuary. I know it may not be a huge deal but it is one more piece in the puzzle.

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If the Paladin gets hit instead of dodging, they just get the mana back from spiritual attunement instead.

With as hard as Icecrown bosses are likely to hit, I'd imagine it would lead to a net gain in mana intake.

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Q u o t e:
I don't think so. We didn't decide until last night to do the Icecrown Radiance. Without the extra tiers that the Ulduar and ToC hard modes included, then the max gear level might have been more like ToC normal 25 is today, and we didn't add Jormungar Radiance.

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NOT ONE, BUT TWO AVOIDANCE NERFS



...I got nothin'.

Remove the avoid bonuses (except % hit reduced) from defense and raise the cap. Instead of the avoid .04% bonus to dodge, block and parry, give it a "all damage reduced by .01" bonus.

All tanks will innately lose 18% avoid from nerfing defense. An additional reduction of base parry, block and dodge by 5% each will get rid of avoid issues.

Increase def cap to say 570 for uncrittable.

So far, your tanks have 33% lower avoid. The defense stat will be more desirable, but because of DR stacking it wont be OP. Get rid of DR on parry and dodge and up the rating required per 1% again. Reduce boss damage.

Give bears more armor bonus again and nerf savage defense. Increase the damage reduction of Frost presence. Make rune strike proc on either dodge or parry. This will help offset the advantage of block pallies and wars have.

Less spike damage for healers. No mindless stam stacking. No DR to discourage people from gemming for dodge or parry, but no high avoid either. Block value and rating stats will be more important to Wars and Pallies again because block will reduce more than 1.5k-2.5k from a 30k hit. Instead, think 1.5k-2.5k from a 15k hit (after mitigation).

So lets review. Tanking wont be about stacking stam and taking huge hits anymore. Instead, a more predictable flow of damage will test the endurance of healers and tanks, stressing damage reduction and mana management since bosses wont be able to 2/3shot anymore. Pumping up your avoid by a few % from gemming, looking for armor trinqs, considering equipping items for block value or rating- balancing all of these things will be an essential part of tanking again.

There you go, problem solved. You'll probably have to pull long hours to get the programming done, but hey- its worth it right?

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Q u o t e:
If the Paladin gets hit instead of dodging, they just get the mana back from spiritual attunement instead.

With as hard as Icecrown bosses are likely to hit, I'd imagine it would lead to a net gain in mana intake.

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I'm aware that this isn't going to make or break BoSanc and that the mana gained or lost is often not an issue. But with so many tanking talents, trinkets, abilities, etc based off dodges there are far reaching changes that we're probably not even aware of at this point by returning tanks to Naxx level dodge while still having ToC+ levels of other stats.

There's also the question of whether or not this further inflates the NElf +miss racial.