I am just glad we are not going backwards.

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Q u o t e:


The real solution, in my opinion, is to give warriors two healing spells, a single target and an aoe.
then remove... hmmm Arms (arbitrarily) for a healing tree.

that would make it 'balanced' right?

Is that a deal? lol... i bet not.

edit: not sure why i quoted that particular post... that was arbitrary as well.

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Actually as a warrior I would support that change if it were possible, But the Idea of a warrior shouting at their allies wounds so they heal faster just does not sound right.

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Q u o t e:
The only reason we treat healers as slightly more specialized than tanks, even though all can do all roles, is that raids have more healers than tanks.

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I'd really love to understand this in context of the perpetual healer shortage. Most raid comps are 3 tank 5-6 healer. Yet, it's the healer shortage we hear about - not the tank shortage. I'm not saying it's factually inaccurate, it's just an interesting tidbit for an offtopic discussion.

I've always thought this concept (not particularly this implementation) would be an interesting thing for WoW as a whole.

I've wondered if they would ever balance trees out to be designed to hold 71 points (perhaps adding more variety, and internal ways to not get two talents) instead of speccing 31 pts into tree X and the remainder into tree Y. And implementing a system to have specialized characters only use abilities for their SPEC.

On the topic of healers...

Healers seem to be -fairly- balanced... with the one caveat that Paladin healers are able to trivialize certain aspects of fights with beacon of light. It's much more noticable in 10m.

For instance... it's rather hard if not impossible for a resto druid or priest or shaman to single heal anub 10m heroic. Yet we've already seen paladin healers solo healing it. Two healing it is much.... much easier with a holy paladin since the paladin can heal both tanks with ease.

Otherwise; the balance between healers and their respective niches seems to be pretty solid. Druids could use a fast heal... (maybe bring swiftmend off the GCD?)

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Q u o t e:


Yeah, that's not too bad if you don't overanalyze it.

The only reason we treat healers as slightly more specialized than tanks, even though all can do all roles, is that raids have more healers than tanks.

I know many of you disagree with the OP, and that's fine, but this issue comes up often enough that I wanted to repeat it once again so it was easy to reference.

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Well that's fine if you execute your design but it doesn't make sense to me that you have a class with 4 viable raid roles that is better at tanking than a class with 2.

Why can't you just make the tanks equal already? If it doesn't make sense to have the classes with the least amount of roles being better than the classes with more roles, then how do you possibly justify a class with more roles being better than one with less?

You can talk about flavor all you want, and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but you have to do a better job of balancing that flavor. You can't have one tank be superior to another tank at every major tanking attribute - survival, dps, aoe threat, single target threat, utility, as a Paladin is compared to a Warrior. It's not flavor to have one tank worse than another at everything. Why can't a few of those categories switch?

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Q u o t e:


I'd really love to understand this in context of the perpetual healer shortage. Most raid comps are 3 tank 5-6 healer. Yet, it's the healer shortage we hear about - not the tank shortage. I'm not saying it's factually inaccurate, it's just an interesting tidbit for an offtopic discussion.

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That seems to vary by server.


Healers are pretty abundant on my server. Tanks...not so much.

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Q u o t e:


I'd really love to understand this in context of the perpetual healer shortage. Most raid comps are 3 tank 5-6 healer. Yet, it's the healer shortage we hear about - not the tank shortage. I'm not saying it's factually inaccurate, it's just an interesting tidbit for an offtopic discussion.

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Probably because its harder to judge a healer by thier gear (well not gear, but usually only a tank's health is looked at), so they are a little less inclined to have the BiS everywhere.

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Q u o t e:

what reason is there to choose a priest when the druid heals/dpses exactly the same but has the option of tanking when it wants to?

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Because a druid doesn't heal exactly the same way as a priest? Because having variety is good, and having different kinds of healers who have their own strengths and weaknesses is stronger?

Or how about this: because someone actually likes how a priest plays but doesn't like how a druid plays? Because there's a big difference in how a druid and priest actually play on healing and on dps.

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Q u o t e:
why roll a deathknight when a paladin dpses/tanks just as well, but in a pinch can spec healing and have that advantage?

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Because you don't want to heal? Because you don't enjoy it?

Or maybe because you enjoy playing a DK?

Or maybe because a DK tanks and DPSes differently than a paladin?

Or maybe because a DK isn't a paladin and brings different sets of buffs and debuffs?

If everyone thought like you, tonytony, Anub'arak would be silly. Why? Because the top DPS on Anub'arak are DKs. The best tank on Anub'arak is a warrior. Some of the best healing is priest healing on Anub'arak as well due to inspiration and bubbles. HoTs are actually bad due to overhealing. All of these things are true not because they have the best EH or the best DPS in normal situations or are the best overall healer; it's because specific abilities really help here.

It is good to have people that can swap to things that the raid needs, but that isn't the most important thing. Diversity of classes is also pretty useful.

But more importantly, players having fun is more useful yet.

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Q u o t e:


Well that's fine if you execute your design but it doesn't make sense to me that you have a class with 4 viable raid roles that is better at tanking than a class with 2.

Why can't you just make the tanks equal already? If it doesn't make sense to have the classes with the least amount of roles being better than the classes with more roles, then how do you possibly justify a class with more roles being better than one with less?

You can talk about flavor all you want, and I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but you have to do a better job of balancing that flavor. You can't have one tank be superior to another tank at every major tanking attribute - survival, dps, aoe threat, single target threat, utility, as a Paladin is compared to a Warrior. It's not flavor to have one tank worse than another at everything. Why can't a few of those categories switch?

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If GC was god of the universe, he would snap his fingers together and make all tanks equals with their own individual flavor and it would rain sunshine and rainbows.

But he's not. So it's gonna take some time.

Edit: Red letters to say that felhoof ---^ is completely right. And I need spell check.

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Q u o t e:
practically everyone disagrees with me GC. they don't see the big picture.

healers and tanking being equal is fine, if those are areas that require absolute parity than so be it. but then that creates reason to tweak shaman/priest/warrior/DK damage upwards to compensate. because all things being equal those classes are locked out of the choices given to paladins and druids and are at a significant disadvantage.

what reason is there to choose a priest when the druid heals/dpses exactly the same but has the option of tanking when it wants to?

why roll a deathknight when a paladin dpses/tanks just as well, but in a pinch can spec healing and have that advantage?

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Because you want to?


People play warriors instead of paladins because they like to charge around and because they prefer the more "physical" side of damagedealing instead of spell (Holy) damage.

People play shamans instead of druids because they love using totems, they love being able to use a shield or Dual Wield and they love having a ranged interrupt on a short cooldown.

People play Death Knights because they like Death Gripping people, they like the spell/physical melee class combination, they like having a pet and they like tanking with a 2h.



You can't equate all things in WoW in numbers. "Fun" and "Preference" is NOT representable by mathematics. Thats why the "Class X can do 3 things and class Y can only do 2 things" argument is useless. People play their respective classes because they think its FUN and they like the FLAVOR and PLAYSTYLE of the class.

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Q u o t e:


again, you take a penalty for the ability and option of performing extra roles. whether you use them or not is your own prerogative. the tradeoff you make is no different than the one you make when you decide if you want a pure dps or a hybrid. the mental block you're experiencing is only in your head.

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You cannot really say that because blizzard has not given me the option to be a pure tank or a pure healing class.

Anyway this is not a thread about hybrids vs pures it is a thread about 2 role hybrid vs 3 roll hybrid.

warrior/dk/shaman/priest feel like they are getting jipped because paladin/druid can perform more roles than we can and they can are also just as good if not better at performing the same roles we can.

Blizzard has acknowledged the situation and pretty much just told us to shut up and deal with it or reroll.

Simply put Hybrids that can only perform 2 roles get the shaft because somehow blizzards logic that says Player1 who performs 1 role should do that roll better than player2 but player2 who performs 2 roles should be no better than the guy who can perform all 3.

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Q u o t e:


You cannot really say that because blizzard has not given me the option to be a pure tank or a pure healing class.

Anyway this is not a thread about hybrids vs pures it is a thread about 2 role hybrid vs 3 roll hybrid.

warrior/dk/shaman/priest feel like they are getting jipped because paladin/druid can perform more roles than we can and they can are also just as good if not better at performing the same roles we can.

Blizzard has acknowledged the situation and pretty much just told us to shut up and deal with it or reroll.

Simply put Hybrids that can only perform 2 roles get the shaft because somehow blizzards logic that says Player1 who performs 1 role should do that roll better than player2 but player2 who performs 2 roles should be no better than the guy who can perform all 3.

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You can only perform one role at a time.

As a raid leader I don't like the new Divine Sac idea.


It means I have to put the Pally in a certain X group now.

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Q u o t e:


if you like how a priest plays, you get the added benefit of being a better healer than a druid. if you like how a druid plays, you get the added benefit of being able to spec as a tank if you want. i don't see your point here

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Right. But in your world, because a priest is better, the druid who likes healing as a druid gets sat for the priest.

Similarly, the druid who likes tanking as a druid (or DPSIng, or whatever) gets sat for other DPS classes or tanking classes because they're not as good.

In your world, raids would almost never bring tanks other than DKs or Warriors, and would almost never bring healers other than shaman and priests. Why would they? They're better.

That's what we had in BC; unless you brought a ridiculously awesome buff you weren't brought. And even then, sometimes not - and certainly never more than one of you.

Blizzard has actively stated that they do not want this; that it is not fun to play someone who is objectively weaker than other classes by design. It's a bad design and it's discouraging, and it's something they don't want. If that's the game you want, there are options for you. But that's not where WoW is going.

The choice of having balance by 'how many roles you can fulfill' is fairly stupid anyway. People don't switch roles particularly often. Most people self-identify not by the class they play but by the role they play as well. Switching roles for the majority of players is not a benefit. You believe it is a great benefit, but it just doesn't come up. Heck, what comes up more is people with alts needing to play a specific role in an encounter.

So maybe we should have everyone with an alt take a 10% health and DPS and healing hit per alt? Because, you know, they could just play that alt instead, and that's not balanced compared to those who only have one character.