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Q u o t e:
Yes. I'm not sure if everyone realizes that. Need Before Greed is forced when you add random players to a 5-player group. You can use whatever loot system you choose when you use /invite to form the group.

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Correct, but we're losing functionality that aids in /inviting for a pug.

Namely,
1) Selectively searching for group members while not in a major city.
2) Selectively searching for group members via a list (rather than being required to post regarding the run, and, accordingly, having to sort through tells--often from those unsophisticated players whom you mentioned, who respond to "LF1M tank" with "I can DPS, invite!" for example).

End of the world? Of course not.
Unnecessary loss of functionality? Yes, to me, at least.

You know, I thought I actually might start pugging an instance or two if some good items started dropping and I didn't feel like waiting for someone in my guild.

Not anymore.

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Q u o t e:
they should just make boe not rolled, just give it out like normal, only bop should be rolled

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Then the same consideration should be given to the DE option. BoE is considered "normal" loot and not touched by the DE button. Everything BoP has the option to be DE'd.

Everyone who is about to flame me for going off topic for this.. explain to me the difference. Why should the armor class priority be given such a treatment but the DE button not be given such a treatment?

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Q u o t e:


Need before Greed is changed everywhere. From our research, very few groups use this loot system. (I'm sure some do, and you don't need to post to tell us that it's your favorite loot system.) Most groups use some variant of Group Loot (the current default) or Master Looter. If you use Group Loot, you can still Need on anything you want..

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Well, this may seem like basics to a lot of people, but I think part of the confusion/concerns is that the default "Group Loot" includes aspects of "Need before Greed" rolling on higher level items. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who don't know that they are two different loot systems, and assume that the default loot system is "Need before Greed" since the Need/Greed/Pass option is what pops up whenever you stumble across a higher level item.

(EDIT: I include myself as one of those people who got confused. I'm a fairly experienced player, and I completely forgot that "Group Loot" and "Need Before Greed" were not the same thing).

I had this happen just last week on a reg-ToC run. My plate heal is the pvp w/resil i187 gear (not the best). Lots of 200 spell mail was dropping. No shammys or other healers in the group that needed it. I was hitting Need, as I really NEEDED it. Huge upgrade. Some pug plate-purist pally was annoyed I wasn't hitting Greed, although I was healing him. What did he care? He wanted a chance to vendor for some chump change. If I'm healing, I seriously don't care if it's plate/mail/leather/cloth. Stats the whole way.

By Blizz's logic, I should politely ask the rest of the group if I can have it, after hitting Greed.

1) As stated, I'm now going against the default programmed/designed behavior intended for the new Need/Greed system. I now have to combat a pug group that what I'm asking for is logical and normal, even though it is against Blizz's wishes and design.

2) Also stated previously, this is too much faith in the common pugger. I can't count the number of times I've had to say, "Let's all please stop arguing and get through this fast." as someone has to comment, "I don't like the way you X." or "you need to Y" Puggers realize that this anonymity is just that; no repercussions to sometimes atrocious behavior. I do not have faith that a pugger will always do the right thing for my interests, as it has been proven countless times. At best, with a pug, you can hope to get to the end without an argument breaking out. I've had bout 50/50 with good vs bad experiences with them, but I really don't need one more reason to discuss loot with some random pugger that just wants 10g.

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Q u o t e:
When the armor class doesn't match your class, just change the Need button into a Need* button, that gets lower priority than the former. How hard is development these days?

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Considering it's new Technology* that allows them to allows HoTs and DoTs to tick faster.. apparently it's got nothing to do with Development.

*Go read the GC post.. it's baffling.

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Q u o t e:
Ultimately, our logic went like this: If a Holy paladin loses a great non-plate upgrade to another player, one out of five players might feel bad. If a Holy paladin rolls Need on every type of armor that drops, then four out of five players might have a bad experience. The jerk potential seemed worse than the lost-an-upgrade potential as far as whether or not players buy into using the new dungeon tool.

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I saw this and broke out laughing, this is some of the worst "logic" ive ever seen! Here's some better logic: Lets say say 1 pug group run 100 instances. Out of all those instances, lets say 1 item drops from each run that someone needs that is of a different armor type. So instead of something happening once and moving on, your group now has to endure every single run being a negative experience because a player will ALWAYS be forced to lose out on an upgrade. I don't know about others, but I'd gladly have that 1 instance be negative and the other 99 positive, instead of 100 negative experiences.

edit: here's an idea for a fix, have an item check what the player joined the group as, if an item that classifies as healing drops, anyone who joined up as the healing role can roll need. Tada, I fixed your problem.

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Q u o t e:
Well, this may seem like basics to a lot of people, but I think part of the confusion/concerns is that the default "Group Loot" includes aspects of "Need before Greed" rolling on higher level items. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who don't know that they are two different loot systems, and assume that the default loot system is "Need before Greed" since the Need/Greed/Pass option is what pops up whenever you stumble across a higher level item.

(EDIT: I include myself as one of those people who got confused. I'm a fairly experienced player, and I completely forgot that "Group Loot" and "Need Before Greed" were not the same thing).

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Ooo, same here, thought they were changing Group Loot. Although does this mean the disenchant option won't be available with Group Loot on?

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Q u o t e:
Development is easy. Explaining complex rules to a broad audience is hard. I've played a lot of games that were clearly supposed to be aimed at hardcore gamers who don't mind complexity. WoW isn't one of those games.

Many forum posters dramatically, dramatically underestimate how sophisticated they are in their WoW comprehension compared to the average player.

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A change to a weighted need system wouldn't change the experience of a new/ignorant/inexperienced player when loot it rolled.

As it is now:

Newbie:"Hey why can't I need on that cloth piece? That's an upgrade for my boomkin"
Group: "The cloth wearers get priority since it is their armor class."

With the suggested Need change:

Newbie: "Hey I rolled need on that cloth piece, why didn't I see my role/didn't I win the item when I won the roll?"
Group: "The cloth wearers get priority since it is their armor class."

It wouldn't be as much of an issue if it weren't for the fact that the DE option means a legitimate and perhaps significant upgrade is going to be disenchanted and completely lost.

I understand you want to reduce complexity, but this doesn't seem like a good place to do it, it might be a bit more work on your end but it will be worth it when it is implemented.

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Q u o t e:
You can still Greed a potential upgrade item. You can still talk to your group and explain that X is an awesome item for you and would they mind passing on it or even trading it? (You can trade BoP items for a short period of time following the same rules that apply today.)

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My problem is that if you select "greed" on the item and Disenchant is weighted the same as "greed", then any DE rolls (that beat the greed roll) will result in the item being sharded rather than going to the person who actually wants to use the item. If the item is sharded, then all they can do NOW is say "omg I turned your best in slot item (that you couldn't roll need on) into a shard!" If 4 of the 5 people roll "DE" and 1 rolls "greed," then 4/5 times, the person who wants the item is going to see their item sharded.

This is going to clog up your Customer Support team who has to un-shard the hundreds of items that people wanted but other people turned into a shard because sharding was given the same weight as their greed roll.

It's going to be frustrating for everyone to see things they want to use become disenchanted shards. Trying to convince people to NOT click DE is going to be like trying to convince people to NOT be jerks in the first place... You just trade one problem (everyone greeding) for another (everyone DE'ing stuff you want to use).

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Q u o t e:
Yes. I'm not sure if everyone realizes that. Need Before Greed is forced when you add random players to a 5-player group. You can use whatever loot system you choose when you use /invite to form the group.

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Just to be clear, I'm in a guild that only does 5-man dungeons (in fact there's only 5 of us in guild) and we run a few times every week (call us a hardcore 5-man guild). We only do runs with the 5 of us in our guild. Will I:

A) Be able to roll on Leather or Cloth for Shammy
B) Be able to roll on any BOE for my Priest or Pally alt
C) Be able to DE a BOP if we all choose.

These are both things that are perfectly fine for my guild (expected actually). It would be a shame to take the original Group Loot features away from us. Again, we do not pug, we do not use LFG, we only run 5-mans (no raids).

Ryzka there are a lot of blue posts adressing that including a blue faq.

The loot rules only apply if someone joins your group via the lfg channel. If you make a group by inviting your friend you can do whatever you want to do.

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Q u o t e:

My problem is that if you select "greed" on the item and Disenchant is weighted the same as "greed", then any DE rolls will result in the item being sharded rather than going to the person who actually wants to use the item. If the item is sharded, then all they can do NOW is say "omg I turned your best in slot item (that you couldn't roll need on) into a shard!"

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Is that how it really works? Wouldn't it make more sense that if they are weighted the same that whoever "wins" the roll gets what they chose? So if you selected Greed and won, you get the item. If I select DE on the same item and win, I get the shard.

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Q u o t e:


Is that how it really works? Wouldn't it make more sense that if they are weighted the same that whoever "wins" the roll gets what they chose? So if you selected Greed and won, you get the item. If I select DE on the same item and win, I get the shard.

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and if you win and get the shard, I lost out on the item that was an upgrade.

If 4 of 5 people roll "DE", and 1 of 5 roll "greed" (because they want to actually use the item), then 4 times out of 5, you are going to lose the item you want to DE rolls. This is going to suck a lot for people who end up having to use lower armor types a lot. I almost ALWAYS have cloth pieces in my moonkin set. and this system is going to make it so much harder to do that, because no one in the pug is going to let people take off-set gear anymore. It's going to be need or risk having it DE'd. If you can't "need" on it, then good luck winning that roll!

I clarified what I was saying more. I can't spend hours on my forum posts to make sure people understand what I'm saying.

Why should your shard be weighted as highly as an item that is a huge upgrade for my main set of gear?