World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh

Vallya

< Retribution >

Khaz Modan

0. Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 10:45:42 AM PDT

Can we please talk about the new Need before Greed rules in 5man pugs re: armor types not being Needable if they are outside your class?

This means Shaman, good luck needing that leather piece that dropped, even if you are the only caster.

"But Vallya, surely you can just tell them all to pass so you can Greed"

You're assuming the intelligence of your average cross-server pug DPS is high enough to support doing anything but clicking /de every time something drops that isn't leather.

"Butbutbut classes should have dibs if its their armor type!"

Fine with me. If we have an ele shaman and a holy pally in a group and the shaman needs the mail, give it to him if thats your desire. Just don't remove my ability to hit Need as well if its an upgrade to supersede the Greed of others that just want to sell it.

Sprouticus

< Agents of the Kirin … >

Azjol-Nerub

1. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 10:51:24 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Can we please talk about the new Need before Greed rules in 5man pugs re: armor types not being Needable if they are outside your class?

This means Shaman, good luck needing that leather piece that dropped, even if you are the only caster.

"But Vallya, surely you can just tell them all to pass so you can Greed"

You're assuming the intelligence of your average cross-server pug DPS is high enough to support doing anything but clicking /de every time something drops that isn't leather.

"Butbutbut classes should have dibs if its their armor type!"

Fine with me. If we have an ele shaman and a holy pally in a group and the shaman needs the mail, give it to him if thats your desire. Just don't remove my ability to hit Need as well if its an upgrade to supersede the Greed of others that just want to sell it.

Its too bad there is not a way we can swap gear aroundafter it has been given to someone....

Hiredbow

Area 52

2. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 10:53:35 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Its too bad there is not a way we can swap gear aroundafter it has been given to someone....

Yeah, it's really too bad.

Vallya

< Retribution >

Khaz Modan

3. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 10:54:30 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

Its too bad there is not a way we can swap gear aroundafter it has been given to someone....

/whisper hey I could really use that piece of mail

option 1) /reply sorry, it auto-DE'd it

option 2) /reply lol 1k plzkthnx

option 3) /reply sure, here you go

Everyone I know will be hitting DE, which makes #1 a strong possibility. I've met quite a few 2's as well.

All I'm saying is... If they are going to design this system to prioritize armor types, they should at least give the rest of us a chance to roll instead of forcing us to greed something that we actually need.

Is this really too much to ask?

Kardonn

< Imperial Redux >

Azjol-Nerub

4. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 10:59:00 AM PDT

Might be too complex for the average pug to understand, but the new EPGP mod has nice options:

Need
Minor Upgrade
Offspec
Greed
Pass/DE

Paladins rolling on Mail gear are automatically placed as Minor Upgrade instead of Greed...so assuming there's no SP using Shaman in the group, it would go to the Paladin.

[ Post edited by Kardonn ]

Durus

< Dissent >

Feathermoon

5. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 10:59:20 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

/whisper hey I could really use that piece of mail

option 1) /reply sorry, it auto-DE'd it

option 2) /reply lol 1k plzkthnx

option 3) /reply sure, here you go

Everyone I know will be hitting DE, which makes #1 a strong possibility. I've met quite a few 2's as well.

All I'm saying is... If they are going to design this system to prioritize armor types, they should at least give the rest of us a chance to roll instead of forcing us to greed something that we actually need.

Is this really too much to ask?

I quite agree. If they want to do this right, they need to fix up the rules a bit or simply add in more roll options. Think of a need / offspec / vendor +DE three tier system. Then, at least, if they want to put in nonsense armor restrictions on the top level, there is an offspec level that gets priority before the thing gets auto-DE'd. Frankly, I think an offspec option should've been added as soon as duel-spec was added, if not sooner.

Nýth

< Over Raided >

Khadgar

6. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 11:01:17 AM PDT

I don't need to explain to you that no one in the game can use Holy Paladin plate gear except a Holy Paladin. Let's look at this in another perspective:

You are an elemental shaman and an upgrade you really want drops, it's mail, so you roll need. Well, the Holy Paladin decides to roll need as well because, "It's an upgrade". And the Holy Paladin gets the item.

Then on the next boss a plate item, for the same slot, drops and the Holy Paladin takes it. It's too bad that Paladin already socketed and enchanted that Mail piece huh?

I know you may think this scenario is rare, but it does happen. In addition, Mail wearers deserve priority on mail gear over plate wearers. It's the nature of the beast. If a mail peace does drop, and no one else needs it, just ask calmly and politely. Worst case scenario is that they say no, and you can report them later for taking an upgrade from you for vendor. And if the GM says no, then oh well. It's not like it's hard to run 5Ms.

Boda

< M Y T H inc >

Eredar

7. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 11:05:07 AM PDT

Q u o t e:

/whisper hey I could really use that piece of mail

option 1) /reply sorry, it auto-DE'd it

option 2) /reply lol 1k plzkthnx

option 3) /reply sure, here you go

Everyone I know will be hitting DE, which makes #1 a strong possibility. I've met quite a few 2's as well.

All I'm saying is... If they are going to design this system to prioritize armor types, they should at least give the rest of us a chance to roll instead of forcing us to greed something that we actually need.

Is this really too much to ask?

So what you are saying is, you've never grouped with a decent person. Wow, I feel sorry for you then. I meet great people in this game all the time.

Vallya

< Retribution >

Khaz Modan

8. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 11:06:52 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
I don't need to explain to you that no one in the game can use Holy Paladin plate gear except a Holy Paladin. Let's look at this in another perspective:

You are an elemental shaman and an upgrade you really want drops, it's mail, so you roll need. Well, the Holy Paladin decides to roll need as well because, "It's an upgrade". And the Holy Paladin gets the item.

Then on the next boss a plate item, for the same slot, drops and the Holy Paladin takes it. It's too bad that Paladin already socketed and enchanted that Mail piece huh?

I know you may think this scenario is rare, but it does happen. In addition, Mail wearers deserve priority on mail gear over plate wearers. It's the nature of the beast. If a mail peace does drop, and no one else needs it, just ask calmly and politely. Worst case scenario is that they say no, and you can report them later for taking an upgrade from you for vendor. And if the GM says no, then oh well. It's not like it's hard to run 5Ms.

Did you even read the OP?

I get it. Shaman needs them some mailz and Dr00ds could really use that SP leather.

I just don't want to see that SP mail go to the dps dk for /vendoring or auto-/sharded when I would have worn it and used it with pride.

Yes. Paladins can use SP Plate. I'm as willing to admit thats lame as the next guy. In fact, I bet most paladins would be willing to remove SP Plate from the game entirely and share itemization with Resto Shaman but thats outside the scope of this thread.

Gladorn

< Love Me Dead >

Haomarush

9. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 11:09:45 AM PDT

As a cloth wearer, I do appreciate this change. It is annoying to roll on spellcaster cloth and the need roll is won by the rogue or warrior. Sometimes they D/E it, sometimes they just sell it for whatever pitiful amount it is worth.

Cloth wearers can not use leather, mail, or plate. With the current gear drops in Heroics, if you "need" cloth you are doing something wrong. (Yes, BC had some bad itemization and wearing lesser armor did make some sense.)

Use your emblems to purchase gear. WOW has made it so easy to do some proper gear equipping. Heck, pretend you are a DPS and muck through ToC. Make sure you pug the dailies for the Triumph emblems. Again, if you are wearing lesser armor, you are doing it wrong.

Edit: OK, Now I get your point! If no one "needs" it, then everyone should have an equal opportunity to get it!

Well... hmm... Yeah, that makes sense. Your original post was not clear on that point. Thank you for explaining it further.

[ Post edited by Gladorn ]

It has been said that with enough monkeys typing away on keyboards, we could reproduce the complete works of Shakespeare. Thanks to World of Warcraft Forums we now know that is not true.

Anicera

< Legends of Tristram >

Gilneas

10. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 11:23:48 AM PDT

Perhaps they should tier the need rolls. Those who choose need for whom it is their maximum armor level get priority. For example, a cloth piece drops. A priest, warlock and shaman roll need, game rolls for priest and warlock to see who wins. However, if only the shaman rolls need, they get priority over those who chose de. That would be more fair to lower armor types than the current system, and more fair to higher armor types than the proposed system.

And yes, you could argue "stick to your own armor", but while gearing my resto shaman I've been in many groups where I was the only caster in a group full of dks/ret pallies/warriors/hunters. And when those epic sp/crit/int shoulders dropped, you bet I rolled on them to replace my blues. Would I prefer mail? Sure, but when gearing I'll take what I can get if no one else needs it. And yes, if there is a clothie, I make sure they don't need a piece of cloth before I roll on it.

Not to mention the problems with trying to find hit gear for an ele shaman or boomkin who's trying to gear up. This proposed system would only work if everyone had gear itemized the way they need it, which would clutter loot tables and lead to complaints that only 1 spec uses sp/hit leather or sp/hit mail, so why is it on the loot tables (kinda like the complaints about sp plate now).

Vallya

< Retribution >

Khaz Modan

11. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 11:41:50 AM PDT

Q u o t e:
Perhaps they should tier the need rolls. Those who choose need for whom it is their maximum armor level get priority. For example, a cloth piece drops. A priest, warlock and shaman roll need, game rolls for priest and warlock to see who wins. However, if only the shaman rolls need, they get priority over those who chose de. That would be more fair to lower armor types than the current system, and more fair to higher armor types than the proposed system.

And yes, you could argue "stick to your own armor", but while gearing my resto shaman I've been in many groups where I was the only caster in a group full of dks/ret pallies/warriors/hunters. And when those epic sp/crit/int shoulders dropped, you bet I rolled on them to replace my blues. Would I prefer mail? Sure, but when gearing I'll take what I can get if no one else needs it. And yes, if there is a clothie, I make sure they don't need a piece of cloth before I roll on it.

Not to mention the problems with trying to find hit gear for an ele shaman or boomkin who's trying to gear up. This proposed system would only work if everyone had gear itemized the way they need it, which would clutter loot tables and lead to complaints that only 1 spec uses sp/hit leather or sp/hit mail, so why is it on the loot tables (kinda like the complaints about sp plate now).

This is exactly what I would propose.

All that is needed is a 2-tier Need system as determined by the server. If they can distinguish what the characters "Core" armor type is, they can also simply give /roll preference to any character that rolls Need for armor with that core type and then let everyone else roll Need after that.

Rijat

< Infallible >

Eonar

12. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 11:52:11 AM PDT

I'm kind of confused. If a piece drops that someone can't used, wouldn't they pass it or auto-DE it? Wouldn't you get the item as the only one who rolled Greed?

................(___)..........
.................|Oo|...........
.......... /```` OO).........
........./ |____-- ..........THIS IS SPARTA
.......*...L......L.............

Quezza

< Tauren Doom Squad >

Moon Guard

13. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 11:56:02 AM PDT

Need main spec roll (priority roll and can only roll on main gear. Plate=plate mail=mail etc)
Need off spec (second priority and can roll off main gear. ie: leather can roll for cloth etc)
Greed/De
Pass.

If blizzard is really worried about ninjas on off spec need, then maybe limit each player to one off spec need per instance.

"Did you put that on the floor?. No? Then get out of it!"

Ghostcrawler

Blizzard Poster

14. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 12:18:29 PM PDT

We knew this change was going to be controversial, and we totally understand that e.g. cloth can be an upgrade for a Balance druid or leather can be an upgrade for a shaman.

Looting to some extent is always going to have a heavily social component. There's only so much we can do (or should do) to try and "solve" that problem for players. On the other hand, the new LFG system also removes some of the social checks and balances (not that those are huge to begin with) by potentially grouping you with folks you may never see again. On my server, perennial ninjas and jerks earn a reputation. That's going to be harder when you're talking about a battle group. Overall we expect players to just pug a lot more often, because the new system really is that good. So overall the drama over who gets the healing shoulders might arise more often. :(

Ultimately, our logic went like this: If a Holy paladin loses a great non-plate upgrade to another player, one out of five players might feel bad. If a Holy paladin rolls Need on every type of armor that drops, then four out of five players might have a bad experience. The jerk potential seemed worse than the lost-an-upgrade potential as far as whether or not players buy into using the new dungeon tool.

You can still Greed a potential upgrade item. You can still talk to your group and explain that X is an awesome item for you and would they mind passing on it or even trading it? (You can trade BoP items for a short period of time following the same rules that apply today.)

Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

Vallya

< Retribution >

Khaz Modan

15. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 12:23:53 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
We knew this change was going to be controversial, and we totally understand that e.g. cloth can be an upgrade for a Balance druid or leather can be an upgrade for a shaman.

Looting to some extent is always going to have a heavily social component. There's only so much we can do (or should do) to try and "solve" that problem for players. On the other hand, the new LFG system also removes some of the social checks and balances (not that those are huge to begin with) by potentially grouping you with folks you may never see again. On my server, perennial ninjas and jerks earn a reputation. That's going to be harder when you're talking about a battle group. Overall we expect players to just pug a lot more often, because the new system really is that good. So overall the drama over who gets the healing shoulders might arise more often. :(

Ultimately, our logic went like this: If a Holy paladin loses a great non-plate upgrade to another player, one out of five players might feel bad. If a Holy paladin rolls Need on every type of armor that drops, then four out of five players might have a bad experience. The jerk potential seemed worse than the lost-an-upgrade potential as far as whether or not players buy into using the new dungeon tool.

You can still Greed a potential upgrade item. You can still talk to your group and explain that X is an awesome item for you and would they mind passing on it or even trading it? (You can trade BoP items for a short period of time following the same rules that apply today.)

Is there any chance Greed could be given a priority over DE?

That way it could be a suitable replacement for "Need but I can't Need on that item, we can always DE it later"

Anicera

< Legends of Tristram >

Gilneas

16. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 12:27:14 PM PDT

I understand we can trade the item, and most puggers I've run with probably would. My concern is with the addition of the "disenchant" option which rolls against greed. So, say I greed a potential upgrade because it is not my armor type, and everyone else chooses disenchant. If I don't win, the item is gone. It can't be traded to me even if the group member who won is willing. And some may click disenchant before the person who needs the item can say "hey, I could really use that, I'm using XXX". This could either be because they assume I don't want the item, they click out of habit, or just don't care.

Shannon

Dalvengyr

17. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 12:27:34 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
Is there any chance Greed could be given a priority over DE?

That way it could be a suitable replacement for "Need but I can't Need on that item, we can always DE it later"

This would solve both the Need before Greed problem discussed in this thread and the problem of enchanters... well... have a look at the PTR forums if you don't know what the enchanters are unhappy about.

Please do this.

Vurdosk

< Nethermore >

Feathermoon

18. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 12:28:04 PM PDT

I agree, giving Greed priority over DE rolls would be nice. Was it not originally that way or did I misunderstand the patch notes?

There is a point that if you're running with a friendly group, it is EXTREMELY likely that you can just say "Hey, I need that even though it's leather. Can I has it?" And people will say "Sure" unless they also need it.

The people who say "No way man" are the same type of people that hit Need for everything in an instance, upgrade for them or not. I don't think they're very common.

Shannon

Dalvengyr

19. Re: Man I really Need that Mail piece! /sigh 10/28/2009 12:32:57 PM PDT

Q u o t e:
I agree, giving Greed priority over DE rolls would be nice. Was it not originally that way or did I misunderstand the patch notes?

It was at first, then it was changed to be the same priority.

Forum > CLASS ROLES > HEALING